The NRTC on Blindness and Low Vision is committed to enhancing employment outcomes for people with vision loss. Whether navigating the vocational rehabilitation process, beginning to consider careers, or seeking to gain or maintain employment, our webinars and podcasts are designed to help individuals with blindness or low vision along their employment journeys. We aim to provide stimulating podcasts and interactive and informative webinars that include knowledgeable guests.
Webinars
Leveraging Your Disability to Find a Job
This webinar features speakers discussing services offered by their organizations, emphasizing the strengths gained from living with a visual impairment and providing insights on how to leverage these strengths to market oneself effectively.
Linking Up with LinkedIn to Increase Employment Opportunities
This webinar explores how individuals with vision loss can utilize LinkedIn's extensive platform to enhance their professional network and employment prospects by showcasing their strengths and skills effectively.
Who Needs to Know?: When and How to Disclose Vision Impairment
This webinar explores disclosure considerations for job seekers and employees with vision loss, covering timing, methods, necessity, and preparation, with insights from panelists with varying levels of vision loss sharing their disclosure strategies and experiences.
Navigating the VR System: Services are Better When We Work Together
This webinar aims to provide individuals with blindness or low vision, who are either receiving vocational rehabilitation (VR) services or considering applying for them, with insights into the VR process.
Podcasts
Follow Season 1 of the Employment Insights with the NRTC podcast on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
Episode 1: 150 Resumes Later: Entering Employment with Blindness and Low Vision (Joe)
For people who are blind or have low vision, finding and maintaining employment is often a challenge. On this episode, we are joined by guest Joe Roan, who talks with our host, Sylvia Stinson-Perez, about his employment journey. Joe shares the challenges he faced in his first years of employment and tips he learned as he grew in his career.
Listen on Spotify Download Episode 1 Transcript
Transcript:
Introduction: Hello, welcome to Employment Insights with the NRTC. On each episode, we invite a guest over to talk about their challenges, achievements, and insights through employment. On this episode, we are joined by host Sylvia Stinson-Perez and guest Joe Roan. Keep listening to hear how, through courage and persistence, Joe found his success through employment.
Sylvia: Hello, everyone, welcome to NRTC Employment Insights. Today I am just thrilled to be joined by a friend, Joe Roan. I got to know Joe through my participation in Toastmasters, which is a public speaking training program. Welcome, Joe.
Joe: Hello. Nice to see you again, Sylvia. Great to be here.
Sylvia: Great to have you. So, Joe, working and maintaining employment through vision loss is a challenge. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your vision loss journey.
Joe: I have had two different lives. One was very early and one was a long span of unemployment. Let me tell you about both of them.
The first one really was out of college. I left college a little early. It wasn't quite the thing for me. I had to look around and say, what if not college? I had a sister who was doing something in Massachusetts called the Vending Facilities program. Today, it's known as Business Enterprise Program. She was actually pretty well ensconced in that. She had been doing it three or four years and I really had no better ideas. I really didn't. I had no real knowledge of the program, but I had to have some direction. So I signed up. I went through three months of on the job training. They may do it differently these days. And in many states, I would say Massachusetts, at least at the time I entered the program, was one of the more independently run programs.
What I mean by that is they gave my vendor quite a bit of latitude as to how they run their business. Once you went through training, at some point you were awarded a location, which could be anything from a newsstand to a coffee shop to a full cafeteria, assuming you had the proper training. If you had trained at a newsstand, they wouldn't give you a cafeteria. Once you got that, they furnished you with the proper equipment, working condition and about a week's worth of stock. And they let you go off and running. Of course, the program was mostly based on seniority, longevity, the first store on stand or facility that you got wasn't going to be the top of the heap.
Over the years, I had five different locations in Massachusetts. I did this over a course of about twenty-two years. And by the end, I was making pretty good money and I call myself an independent businessman because for all intents and purposes, that's exactly what I was. It was a great twenty-two years, not without its frustrations like anything. I went through a lot of changes during those twenty-two years, of course. I had always had low vision, was always legally blind, and but during those twenty-two years, about seven or eight years into my program, I lost quite a bit width of sight. I became white cane dependent. And it was quite traumatic and anybody who might be listening they probably have gone through something similar. I nearly quit doing vending at that point because my whole life was just upside down. But I honestly had no other place to turn. And I just decided I'm going to do this until I can figure out something else. Well, that only lasted another 15 years, but it was a good 15 years. It really was. I thought my experience as a vendor gave me true independent and critical thinking skills that I may not have gotten as an employee for somebody. When you have to make your own decisions about what you're going to buy, what equipment should I try to use or not use, what merchandise should I sell? Who should I hire or who might I have to fire? Those are important decisions, especially with the last category. Over my career I probably hired and fired over 30 people. And those are probably some of the most difficult decisions I made, but you learned a lot about yourself and you learned a lot about doing those kind of activities. Not to mention running around, running your own business, dealing with a lot of cash, it’s cash business. There's a lot of responsibility, a lot of bookkeeping, taxes, things of that nature. It was a responsibility as a 19-year-old when I first entered, I probably wasn't quite ready for, but I grew into it and after 22 years, I thought this career has been good to me. It really had been. I went on to other things. Because at the time, you can stop me any time here, that was the first half of my working career. It really was a good foundation for the rest of my adult life.
Sylvia: Well, share the rest! Yes. Share the rest. Even talk about the time you maybe were not working and what you did.
Joe: That was the second half of my adult life.
Sylvia: Yeah.
Joe: My wife in the late 90s had an opportunity to move from Massachusetts at her company to Florida. Not secretly, not so secretly, I had wished and hoped to live in Florida for about 10 years at this juncture. I had no way of making this dream come true. But when presented with her opportunity to move to Florida, I was so tickled at the possibilities. I was making okay money with vending, but something sort of weird had happened in the mid-90s. In fact, it was a catastrophe. In Oklahoma City, the Murrah Federal Building was bombed. It caused a wave across the country the way they treated security. My facility was located in a federal building. As a result of the tightened down security, the building went. The building I worked in took up a whole city block, had about six entrances. People would walk through the building on their way to the next street. After that Oklahoma City bombing, everything was locked down one way in and one way out. And I lost probably about 40 percent of my business. Still survivable, but put that together with my wife's opportunity and I said, oh, take a chance. And I did.
I thought I could make a transition to a tech career. I was sort of a techie all my adult life. I took college courses, had my own computer. I even made the transition when I lost sight and when things like Windows came along to move from using large print to using Jaws screen reader, which was quite a transition in and of itself. I was pretty good at tech or at least I thought I was. Self-trained and took some courses and got what I thought was pretty adequate credentials to make a transition to a tech career that was over the first three or four or five years when I was in Florida. I hit the streets. Put out over 150 resumes, never one interview. Very, very frustrated.
At that point, I said, if someone's not going to hire me, I'm going to go back to what I know. I'm going to hire myself. I had already had twenty-two years as a sole proprietor, self-employed. I can do it again. I tried many things, including internships, volunteers. I, as a tech person, I thought I could or maybe help some people with malware on the computers. I thought I could run my own website and sell things, affiliate sales, things like that. I thought I could day trade.
All these ideas I had tried. None of them really panned out. I ended up volunteering at the local lighthouse, that's where I met you, Sylvia. I also tried volunteering at a local college, trying to help them with their website. I volunteered at the local county to do the same thing. A lot of these things, when I say volunteer, I didn't mean it. I went to my local county in Florida. And volunteered for over two years. This is after I had my training as a tech person, I was trained as a database administrator and a Web site developer. I thought I had pretty high credentials. I went to this county commissioner’s office and they had an IT department. I asked if they could have any room for an internship or even volunteer-ship, and they said, that's great. Can you teach us how we can make our websites accessible to the disabled? I said of course I can.
I knew nothing, nothing about it. But I said, this is my foot in the door. I left there about two years. This is 40 hours a week, zero pay. I thought I gave them everything they asked for and they gave me nothing I asked for. It was very frustrating what we had. So, I listed about five or six or seven things during an 18-year, 19-year period where I earned zero dollars. I was lucky to have my wife, who was making a good living to support me. It was, but it really got to the point at the end of this 18 or 19 years, I kind of threw my hands up and said, I don't know what is left. I was just out applying for a part time job, even almost anything, anything I could possibly do. But the straw that broke the camel's back with me, which was to file a give up moment, was when I applied for a part time weekend position mining the Salvation Army trailer where people could drop off bags of clothes. And I didn't even get that job because the woman was questioning like, how could I do this possibly if I'm blind? I was insulted, but I answered the best I could. I was certainly qualified to do that. It was a real frustrating moment, a real low point. I decided at that point.
Sylvia: Yeah, that’s frustrating.
Joe: Yeah, I decided at that point I'm just going to take care of my health and myself, which I did. And plenty as it seems, poetic. A year went by, took care of my health, I lost a lot of weight. And the day I reached my goal of weight loss, I got a call for an interview. That interview turns into the job I have today and this is going to kill you, Sylvia. The job I have today is fixing websites for over thirty-five states’ unemployment sites. So, the guy who couldn't get a job like 18 years is now helping disabled people by way of making the websites easier to navigate.
Sylvia: That's awesome.
Joe: I thought it was a great story.
Sylvia: It is awesome. So, Joe, that reminds me of a Dale Carnegie quote. He said, “If action breeds doubt and fear, action breeds confidence and courage. If you want to conquer fear, do not sit at home and think about it. Go out and get busy.” And it sounds like for the most part of that journey, you really did stay busy. It sounds like there were a few times where you were like frustrated and I would say angry and disappointed. But you kept going.
Joe: All true. All true.
Sylvia: So, absolutely. What major lesson have you learned when you're trying something new or taking a new job, whatever that is? What's the what's the lesson you've learned?
Joe: Don't give up. Keep going. Keep going. It doesn't matter what you do. Keep going. That is as simple as that. I wish I had a great quote. There is a portion of a Winston Churchill speech in 1941, but he ends that speech by pounding table saying, “Never give up, never give up, never, never give up.” I don't know. I wish I remember the whole speech, but I heard the body of that speech and he was so full of passion. It inspired me.
Sylvia: Yeah absolutely. And you know so another Eleanor Roosevelt quote that comes to mind for me and that, I think epitomizes what you just said, is that you know you could have felt like inferior and like worthless. And she said, “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” And you did not allow anybody, even though you had all of those what people might term as rejections You just kept going. So, go ahead.
Joe: I never felt inferior, to be honest with you. Now, that is probably, I can't even tell you why, except for one thing. When I was a young boy in even elementary school, I was singled out with a few other students to take part in a special class which indulged, we got in that we were able to leave our own class once a week and spend the whole day with some advanced students. And we did things like science experiments and read Shakespeare and open up US News and World Report. We're in the fifth grade and we’re doing these things. So, I knew I had some wherewithal. But I also knew that the world has a bias against visually impaired and blind. I said I'm not going to let them dictate how I feel. I knew what I was capable of. As long as things could be made accessible and technology, somehow, I was always a techie sort of guy even as a young boy doing science experiments.
When computers came along, I dove right into that, just for fun. It turned out to be my salvation, Sylvia. And whenever people ask me how do I do it, I say, well, I'll be honest with you. If I was in a third world country, I don't know how I'd do it either, because technology really has been the answer for me.
Sylvia: So, my next question for you is what are the key blindness skills that have led to your success? So, technology is right up there at the top of your list, but are there any others that you think these are the things that lead to personal and professional success as a person who's blind?
Joe: I surely think assertiveness has to be there, and I don't think that happens by accident or by chance. It only happens by having some initial courage to do what's outside your comfort zone. Many people go to special schools that help you learn the skills you need as a blind person, daily living skills and such. Or they might go to a special summer camp that helps you do the things you might not do otherwise, and you do with other blind people. And you can learn from that. I never really got that opportunity particularly. But what is really unique about me and my family is I am one of seven siblings, six of whom are legally blind. So, we just had a natural environment in our growing up everyday home life that didn't let you feel sorry for yourself or feel inadequate. We all were, you know, similarly disabled, if I could use that word, sight impaired. There was no crying on anybody's shoulder. Everybody just sort of teamed up together and said we’ll figure out a way or they're not going to let you get away with boo-hooing. That was my natural environment. But I do think if you don't have that natural environment, finding some people in similar positions for at least moral support, but honestly, to learn from is really, if you can find that opportunity, that would be a real way to gain some advantage gain some confidence. Once you have a little confidence, don't be afraid to assert yourself. And I have never been afraid to assert myself ever.
Sylvia: So, some of the things just to recap that you're saying are assertiveness, confidence, problem-solving, a willingness to learn, a willingness to ask for help, seeking out mentors, volunteering. And those are some of the I guess we would call those soft skills
Joe: Sure.
Sylvia: That you definitely have. So, what are some of the key blindness skills? So, I know technology. What else for you?
Joe: We never went to a school for blind or visually impaired. We went to a normal public school. Once a week somebody from the state agency would come in and sort of check up on us, ask our teachers this and that. It was not when I went to school, there wasn't a whole lot, except these big fat pieces of chalk that were five times the size of-.
Sylvia: It was a long time ago, Joe.
Joe: The teachers could do nothing except maybe rewrite some of the copy that they had in larger print. And there was some teachers that were good at it and there was some teachers that really didn't care. I hate to put it like that. But that's the truth. They didn't care or didn't understand, one or the other. What I did learn was, listen close, because that's all you've got. I couldn't even take notes in my own notebook because I couldn't read my own handwriting was so crummy. So, I really had to learn to listen. I don't know how you develop those skills, except necessity is the mother of invention. And that really became one of my best skills. It's funny that we talked about Toastmasters briefly. That's one of the biggest skills in learning Toastmasters. More than speaking, you learn how to listen.
Sylvia: Absolutely. So you're bringing up Toastmasters. And public speaking is one of the things people fear the most, but it's one of the most confidence building activities that you can engage in. I know you're an excellent public speaker. You're very involved in public speaking training. How do you feel your involvement in activities like Toastmasters and other things, because you're out there in the community, how do you feel those have really enhanced your opportunities and your success level?
Joe: The first time I ever attended a Toastmasters meeting, I was a guest. And I'm asked at the end of the meeting what did you think? And I was asked to comment. So I stood up and said, I'm not afraid of almost anything. I'll say almost anything to anybody. But the way you people do here is very impressive and I’m a little bit intimidated. Just there's a portion of every Toastmasters meeting where you get a chance to speak off the top of your head. It’s called tabletop. If you are familiar with it, you’re asked the question and it's as if a situation came up where the local TV stations down the street for some big thing and they stick a camera in your face. How will you answer without looking like a fool when you get to practice those kinds of situations every week at a Toastmasters meeting, you can't help but get better at it just through osmosis, I think that is.
But there's also some skills when we do organize speeches in Toastmasters, we do have to plan it out. We don't just get up and rattle off whatever's on our mind. We do have some structure and there is some storytelling that goes on and you want to do it effectively. I think those specific skills you can learn in Toastmasters are invaluable because not only did they give you a chance to improve your public speaking, they improve your critical thinking. When you get to help others, they improve your leadership. When you get help from others, they improve your appreciation for that too. Many things. And it's all done in a very supportive environment.
Sylvia: So, I think you've also had a lot of fun, and I think sometimes we miss out when we hide ourselves away and we don't get out there when we think about how many people are not working, they're missing out on that water cooler fun or these kind of things that Joe Namath said something I love. And it says, “When you have confidence, you can have a lot of fun. And when you to have fun. You can do amazing things.” And I think you have demonstrated that well, Joe.
Joe: I appreciate the compliments Sylvia, it's true. I never joined Toastmasters to improve my public speaking. I only joined to have the social activity. I enjoyed the time before and after the meetings to have one on one conversations. I’ve made some great friends in Toastmasters
Sylvia: and you've had a lot of opportunities to do other speaking and writing.
Joe: Yes, I have. In fact, in my current position, I've had to do a couple of presentations. I never would have been able to without the Toastmasters training. So, it really is important.
Sylvia: So, share with us one insight about your employment journey. Just one insight that you want everybody to know.
Joe: Perseverance in one word, perseverance that involves tenacity don't give up. That involves patience, because sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, it's not going to help.
Tenacity and patience, it also involves perspective. I have a saying, if you want to quote,
I'm going to give you one of my home worlds. This is my own creation because I'm often asked as I get a lot of blind people and they are asked, how do you do it? As if it was some superhuman skill that no other worldly person could have. I answer them this way. I said today you might win the lottery or you might lose a limb. After all, there’s always going to be people better off than you and there’s always made people worse off than you. Excuse me, balance and perspective. So, no matter how tough things get, well, take a little rest and go at it again tomorrow because there's someone worse off than you. I guarantee you that a lot of people worse off than you and it gives you appreciation for what you do have. It's very simple, it's a spiritual thing, of course. I think it helps me.
Sylvia: and you have definitely demonstrated that perseverance and that patience, just the thought of 18 years of trying and keeping going, I think a lot of people would give up and have given up. And so, I think I would just read another quote that I love from Roger Staubach that I think really fits this, “confidence comes from hours and days and weeks and years of constant work and dedication.” And you have demonstrated that, Joe, and I thank you for that.
Joe: Thank you very much.
Sylvia: Excellent. And it is so true that living with vision loss, and especially thinking about that employment journey requires an amazing amount of perseverance.
Joe: if I could say one more thing about that. It doesn't matter if you get what you want, get something. I have a brother right now working for a local lighthouse. As a matter of fact, it wasn't what he was looking to do, but it’s a job. After about 90 days on the job, he discovered that there may be a new position opening up. And he's doing very well at his current position that he may have a chance at the new position. And I don't think anybody's crystal ball is good enough to know the future. So take what you can get. Keep looking towards the future and keep on keeping on.
Sylvia: You know, Joe, that brings me back to my very beginnings of my career. And I took a job that absolutely wasn't what I wanted, what I “ thought I deserved” with my master's degree. But I needed a job. I wanted a job. And yet now here, all these years later, I built an amazing career out of that and found passion for it.
Joe: This networking, in a way you'll never get that job you want by staying in the house. Hey Sylvia can I let you in on a secret. So I joined Toastmasters sort of to schmooze with the local CEO of the local lighthouse, thinking it might help me. It didn't quite work that way, but I got a great feeling. I'm glad you’re my friend Sylvia.
Sylvia: Well, thank you, Joe, for your tremendous employment insights. You have been a pleasure to have. And your confidence, I think, just comes through loud and clear, but also your messages about perseverance and patience and getting out there and making something happen for you. So thank you so much, Joe.
Joe: Glad to have been here.
Episode 2: Experiences with Disclosing Blindness or Low Vision at Work (Stephen)
In this episode of Employment Insights, we are joined by guest, Stephen Podley, and our host, Sylvia Stinson-Perez. Stephen shares his employment failures and how that directed him towards a successful career.
Listen on Spotify Download Episode 2 Transcript
Transcript:
Introduction: Welcome back to Employment Insights with the NRTC. On each episode we invited guests to join us and talk about their employment journey with vision loss. On this episode, we are joined by host, Sylvia Stinson-Perez, and guest, Stephen Podley. Keep listening to hear about how Stephen's success, leadership, and challenges in the workplace led him to where he works today.
Sylvia: Welcome to NRTC Employment Insights. Today I am just thrilled to be joined by a very long-time friend, Stephen Podley. I think I've known Stephen over 20 years, and it might be closer to 25. He inspires me and I know he's going to share some terrific insights that will help you on your employment journey. Welcome, Stephen.
Stephen: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. And I'm also very glad to be here. And it's a thrill for me to be having this conversation with you, Sylvia. And when you started telling me about how many years it's been, now I understand why my knees hurt sometimes when I get out of bed.
Sylvia: We are getting older. So, Steven and I go back to when we started an RP support group. So, tell us about your employment and vision loss journey. You've had a very successful career but tell us about that journey.
Stephen: Well, it started off with, you know, I went to college and then after college I decided, well, I probably should get a job if I want to get married. That's a good thing. And so, at that point of time, I was legally blind, but I have RP. And so, I had enough vision to where I felt like I could drive a car, but I did not because I didn't want to hurt anybody else. But that was kind of just to give you an idea what it was like. So, I started a job and I didn't tell my employers that maybe 30 years from now I'm going to be blind because I figured I wouldn’t be working there 30 years from now anyhow. But eventually after that, my first job after college, I worked very hard. It was how I was raised to have a strong work ethic. And I just wanted to do the best thing. And also, the harder I worked and the more I concentrated at work, the day went by faster. And then hey it’s five o'clock time to go home. So, I just always tried my hardest. I was always told, you know, if you try your hardest, there's nothing you can't overcome. And that's how to be successful. So anyway, that's how I was raised. And so, at this job, after I had been there about a year or so, I told them how in the future I'm going to go blind one day. I told that to my manager and the manager of human resources, and I didn't know how they were going to take it. And they were like, Stephen, if you ever go blind and you're still here, we will do everything we can do to accommodate you. We will never want to miss you. We want you to be here if you want to work here. And then I thought to myself, well, I didn't say it out loud, but I'm thinking this could be something that they're just saying to make me feel good. They might not mean it and I'll never really know.
So anyway, I took a promotion. I left. I went to a different company. They called me back about two years later and they said they knew the reason I left was to make more money. And so anyway, they told me that they've got another opening that pays even more, and they wanted to know if I'd come back. These are the same people, including the H.R. manager, and I did go back for another few years. But the point is that you have people in this in this world who they know you're going to go blind, and they'll still do, you know, everything they can do because they want you working for them, and they believe in you, and they trust you. And I will say that I was raised where boys don't ever cry for any reason, they do not cry. And that day when they told me that and they offered me to come back, I teared up a little bit because I knew it was sincere, even though I was going blind, that this group of people would still take me back.
Then there was a time that I went for an interview. That was before I had left the second time. And then I thought, I just want to be honest with these people up front, let them know. So, I told them. And the result is they, they took the job offer back. And then I've had employers at the, I can't say where, but I had supervisors who knew I was blind and told me their best employee that they've ever had working for me. And I've had other employers that told me that they asked me, do you think you could still do the job because you're blind? I said, I know I can. And they said, well, I don't think so. I'm giving you three months to leave. So, I've had this mix of people and that's just the way it is out there. Sometimes people will believe in you, and they've got your back. And then you have other people who are harsh, cruel people, and you got to make it through the work environment by just doing your best and trying to overcome these biases that some of these managers have.
Sylvia: Disclosure of disability is a huge topic for people. Counselors working in services for the blind often don't know what to tell their clients. Individuals experiencing vision loss don't know if they should disclose at the interview, when offered a position, of what should they do? It is a very hard thing. And so, you're sharing, Stephen, that it almost doesn't matter because there will be people who will be fine with you and people who will not. I will tell you that, is to disclose, because that's the authentic thing to do. And I don't know that I would want to work for someone who didn't value me at the end of the day and all the great things you bring to the job. I think we fear failure. We try to avoid it. But I don't, wouldn’t you agree that failure often also precedes success? What do you think, Stephen?
Stephen: Oh, definitely, if you're open minded and which I would say most of my life, I would describe myself as being open minded. So, I like to say that when I make a mistake and everybody does, when I make a mistake, I want to grow and be better after I make that mistake and I want to learn how I made it and figure out how not to make it again in the future. And that will make you a better and a stronger person. But you have to be open minded and realize that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know anything else.
Sylvia: Winston Churchill has a great quote that said, “Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It's the courage to continue that counts.” And that fits right with what you were saying.
Stephen: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Sylvia: So, Stephen, tell us about one pivotal experience in which you failed or thought you would fail, but used that to learn and grow.
Stephen: OK, I have only one thing that I disagree with that you mentioned. And I'll just say the disclosure part of it. In my field where I'm at, I don't think people would have been as open minded in the beginning to offer me the job if I would have told them, by the way, I'm going to be blind. Whereas if I got a chance to go there and prove myself, I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen, I just think that statistically I have more options available if I was to not say anything, go in there and prove myself that I can be the best employee you've got and not see a thing. But I got to get a chance to prove it first.
Sylvia: From what I know about you, is that you had some very good residual vision.
Stephen: I did, I did.
Sylvia: Yes.
Stephen: And so, you know, it depends on where I was at, but there was some things, some funny stories like, you know, they would want me to go and walk. And then it’s a construction site and I shredded a brand-new suit, because I couldn’t see all these things I was colliding into and they were probably wondering what's up with this guy. But, you know, I had many, many times things like that happened as I was trying to, but I still had enough to where I could take lumps and bruises and get through it. And people would wonder, but I was at least able to get in there and show that, hey, I can do this job. And so there was a time that that I did disclose, I mentioned about how I told the employer that I was going to be blind. And I also mentioned about how I never tear up or I never cry or whatever. That might have been the only time I remember crying by myself when they took the job offer back when I told them that. And I know for sure I could do the job, like with my hands tied behind my back, but they wouldn't give me the chance. I thought, wow, now I know what it feels like to be discriminated against, anybody that gets discriminated for any reason. I was like, now I really know. And it hurts. It hurts. I went and talked to somebody who became a dear friend that that worked in the ADA. And she told me, well, why do you feel like you need to disclose it? I was like, because I just feel like it's the honest thing that I should do it. And she was like, well, you don't have to. And then I said, well, the next one, I decided I wouldn’t, and I got an opportunity, but, but that's the only thing I would disagree with. And hey, I'm not saying that you're wrong. I hope you don't take it that way. But I feel that I learned based upon where I was at, that I felt like I needed a chance to prove myself. And then when I was given a chance to prove myself, I was able to flourish.
Sylvia: So, what I should say is if it impacts any part of your job. I've never been in a place where vision would not have impacted a part of my job, and I think that most people don't really acknowledge that in many jobs it will impact. And so, you were able to know that it wouldn't impact your ability to do your job in any way.
Stephen: That's true.
Sylvia: And that, that is probably how I should clarify that, is that that really matters.
Stephen: Yeah. And, and a lot of things can be accommodated, too, if you know you can or at least you think you can. You try hard enough.
Sylvia: You can figure out. Right. You can figure out accommodations.
Stephen: Right. Right. Yeah.
Sylvia: So, Stephen, what major lesson or lessons have you learned when you're trying something new, like maybe taking a new job or a promotion or just doing something different at that job?
Stephen: I've learned that we were all created with different strengths and weaknesses and that some people will achieve greatness in a certain area, but not another. But most jobs that are out there don't require just one skill. It's you usually must have a multiple skill set and not everybody is out there, that's going to be just a go getter, perfect score in every single skill category. Those people really don't exist. So, most people feel insecure about their abilities, especially when trying a new job. And I learned that if you just try as hard as you can try that there's no mountain you can't climb, there's nothing you can't get over. I don't want to just be a cliché and say it requires hard work. But for instance, there was a job that the first day I'm like, OK, what would you like me to do? They came in with a stack of books and manuals that would have reached if they could pile them up on top of each other, able to reach the ceiling. They were like, OK, start with this, read all these, understand that, try to memorize all of it and then come back to me. I don't know, I guess you'd have to be in my position to understand and then look back and see the humor in it, but I looked at that stack of manuals and I was like, wow, this is how you people say you eat an elephant one bite at a time. I was like, good God, I don't remember that many books in college. But basically, if you try and, you know, it seemed insurmountable. But just like that saying goes you eat an elephant one bite at a time. And you just have to do, you know, one at a time. And then I take it home, try to understand it, talk to people. You know, you do whatever you can do to accommodate yourself too if you need more time because your vision's not as good like mine, then I would take some home. I would read it, I'd scan it. Because my eyes would get tired, you know, I did have the vision then where I could read, but it was tiring. So, I just tried to do as much, let the computer do as much of that as possible of the reading.
Sylvia: That's excellent.
Stephen: I hope that answered the question.
Sylvia: That was excellent, and I should say that you are in a very highly technical skilled kind of profession. So, you needed to read those manuals because it matters. So, what are the key blindness skills that you have found have led to your success and that everybody really, really needs?
Stephen: OK, that's a great question. I'd love to share my thoughts and ideas. I'll preface it by saying that I think in all of history, if you were going to have to be blind or you were born blind or going blind, this is the time to do it. You know, this is better, I think, then any of the times in the past, because we have so much technology that's out there that people before us didn’t. And I'll never forget being introduced to, I guess I could say iPhone. I hate to say that on the podcast and put one phone over another. But for blind people, at least at the time that that I got one, they helped blind people very much. I can remember it was a federal agent that told me that he was blind on the phone and he strongly recommended me get one. It's amazing. So, I was like, OK. And so, I got the phone and I am I'm going to trying not to go out on a tangent. But basically the smartphone nowadays it’s got so many features to it that we used to have to carry gadgets around, fill in our pockets full of voice recorders and compasses, talking things and things that would beep and blip if you were going to, you know, distance meters and all sorts of things in the past to try to get yourself lined up. And you can do all that on an iPhone that's in your pocket. And plus, so much better. Not just them, but I'm sure other androids, too. But they can do so much more. So, I've had people tell me recently that I know how to use a phone better than they can and they can see and I'm giving you an example. I'll walk across a parking lot and know exactly how to get there, because I'm going to use some of the features that are on the phone. You know I’ll use different GPS, compasses, just a variety of things. But the phones have just so much to offer. Business wise you may also wonder how that helps. Well, you know, you do text messages, emails, all your different email accounts, phone calls, basically anything that any sighted person can do with their. You can do too. And sometimes we can do it faster. And it's a handheld computer is all that the telephone is nowadays. You know, it's a computer that's small and you can talk into it, make a phone call. And so, it's like having a desktop or a laptop, too, which is the only thing we had back before these smartphones, which is another technology that that really helped me to achieve in my career, which is using adaptive technologies and screen readers like JAWS, for instance. And now with the Mac voice over. I hope that answered the question or if you have any follow up.
Sylvia: Yeah, great. What about getting around using mobility training, cane, using the bus, et cetera? Because I know you've been a bus user for a long time too.
Stephen: Yes. The only thing I can't do is drive one now, but I pretty much, know how to get around, mostly I will take public transportation. So, I'll walk, I'll take the the bus, take the train, take multiple trains, multiple buses, and then occasionally it will take shared transportation services. I have Uber and Lyft on my phone. Or sometimes I might take a train to a certain area and then there's no easy way to walk or take other buses or whatever. And I might Uber the rest of the trip for a half a mile or mile or whatever. So, combination of everything. Sometimes I'll ask someone to drive me, but most of the time I do everything on my own. And how do I do it? I mentioned, you know, you have these apps for shared transportation service or special transportation service, sorry. I've got transit apps that tell me wherever I'm standing with the GPS, it'll tell me, oh, this is the next bus coming and what time when the next one is coming. I don't have to do anything but turn it on. I've got apps that are artificial intelligence that will describe to me whatever the computer sees. I've got apps that will link me to other people that will describe things to me. It's amazing what you can do, and how they'll help you not just get around, but help you to do your job.
Sylvia: Well, Stephen, I happen to know that you have always been really techie. And so thinking about hobbies, how have hobbies, you know, been a big part of your success. And I think about going to your home back in the 90s and you have this room full of all these cool ping pong machines that you literally did all the electric work on. How have hobbies really helped you with your level of skill development as a person who's blind for just enjoyment of life and personal and professional development?
Stephen: OK, so that's a great question and yes, I do love pinball machines, I no longer can play them at all, unfortunately, because I lost that last megapixel that I have in my vision. But I played that pinball machine until I had that last megapixel. In fact, I played it with no vision at all, just trying to hit the flippers and listening to the sound of the ball going down. But it wasn't too fun. But I do love pinball machines and would love to just trace wires and try to figure out where electrical shorts were or different components that were broken. Either repair them, swap them out. I was fascinated when I opened one up and there were so many wires in there. I don't know if I did. Did I show you the wires back then? It just looked like there were millions of wires underneath all of them. I don't know, just something like that just thrilled me.
Sylvia: That would just stress me out. Listen, when I get my two headphones tangled up it stress me out.
Stephen: I'll tell you, another hobby I have is I do love, absolutely love to, and this was right now with no vision, to play musical instruments, write,
write songs, write my own songs and record them. And so, I'm able to do all that with no help whatsoever. And I'm saying that because any blind person could do that, and those are the hobbies that I've had and I've have had. But my hobby was, I still have some, by the way, and still repair them, mostly by myself. I might have to ask somebody to tell me what color is this wire or whatever, but I can't play them, but I still enjoy them. I consider those hobbies a type of discipline. And just like martial arts or painting, any musical instrument, whatever you're into, you can do most anything blind. You might have to do it a little different, but you can do pretty much anything.
I think that whatever you get into as an art or a discipline is great for many things. I think that it helps you to focus better, which also helps in the workplace. I think it teaches you how to, that's why they call it a discipline, I think it does discipline you to where you have to practice it. Practice makes perfect. That type of thing. So, I just think whether it's martial arts or whatever you do, if you try to be better at it, you will be. And I remember reading the book about the Beatles, very popular band a while ago, and they said different band members talked about how horrible they were until they played together about ten thousand hours. They were just atrocious. But yet they're considered to be possibly the best band that ever came up. And so, it's just that story that they just kept doing it. And that's great for them wanting to be a band. But why and how would that impact employment? So, in my life, I just feel like it helped me with problem solving abilities. You know, if you don't use it, you lose it. And so, I think that it helps strengthen your mind in different areas, such as logic, problem solving, sticking with something, trying, going around and finding a way to accommodate, you know. For instance, writing music. You think about what is it that you want it to sound like in your head? Well, now the next step is how do you do that.
Sylvia: Those are some great soft skills. We often talk about these soft skills that you need more than technical skills to do a job. You need to know more than the job. You need to have these kind of things that you're talking about, Problem-Solving, persistence, finding a way to adapt things yourself. We can't sit back and wait for other people to create the accommodations. Oftentimes it's up to us. Yes, we can request technology, but oftentimes we're the ones trying to figure out where would that bump dot go to help me the best or how am I going to read those piles and piles of manuals and recognizing I might have to do some of that on my own time. And so, all of those wonderful soft skills you just shared. That's fantastic.
So, Stephen, you've been on this employment journey for quite a while. And as I said, you've had some really great success. And what do you say has really motivated you to stay on this challenging journey of upward mobility? In what I think is a pretty challenging field to be in, especially as someone who's blind and you might want to share a little bit more about what you do.
Stephen: OK, I just want to pause for a second and go back and answer or just point out to the listeners one thing you said that I think is such a key to success and how I've had success in my life. I want to overstate; which is don't wait for other people to accommodate you. Oh, I wish I could, I wish I could have even thought about that to share. Sylvia, that is a fantastic point. And I just want to just drill it into people that I never did that. I never waited ever. Because as you're waiting for someone to accommodate you, that you're you're basically kind of telling you, well, you know, I really can't do it, you know, I kind of need you to help me do this or whatever, and maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I look at it. That's how I think a manager might see it. And I've been a manager for I don’t want to say how many years, but a long time. But I'm never, in fact, I've hired numerous people with with disabilities and I've never because, of course, I'm blind. So, I know. But I never thought in my mind, oh, I need to accommodate this person and tell them to do something that I think they can do. Nope. I tell them I need this done and it's up to them to tell me they can't or they need accommodation. But I'm just saying, like, this was the work that needs to be done. Go do it.
Well, going back to the question you actually ask me. So that is what keeps me on the employment journey. I'm one I don't know how many people that are out there do something that they love to do, but I'm one of those people and I'm so grateful. I thank God that I I was able to have a job that I enjoy. And it's not every day I'm like, oh, I'm so glad I'm going. No, it's not always been that way, but I love what I do. And I've been blessed by being able to work with just many really great people who I've been able to learn different things from. So what keeps me on that journey is, one, that it's been fun and I'm one of those type of people where if I was sitting at home, like I was told when I was I don’t know 18, 19 years old or something eye doctor, ophthalmologist, said, oh, well, you know, I can fill out the the Social Security paperwork right now and you can just not work and collect Social Security. And I said Well, I don't want to do that. That didn't sound fun to me. And I'm not backing anybody that that's what they do. But for me, I can't sit at home. I'd go nuts. So, I've got to go do something. And it's great that I can do something in a work environment that I enjoy doing. And part of the things that keep me on this this career path is that I like challenges. I like to overcome things. I absolutely love to problem solve. That's one of the key things that I have, technical problem-solving skills. Just love it. I mean, some people like I like I love macaroni and cheese. I love problem solving. I know it's a technique.
Sylvia: That’s awesome.
Stephen: So, it keeps me going. I like to interact with people and, you know, going on the bus and going on the train and walking and things like that. I've met interesting people along the way. You get to practice your mobility skills all the time, so you don't get rusty. I like a variety of things in my life. And so, work has offered me all those things.
Sylvia: Awesome. Do you want to share a little bit more about exactly what you do?
Stephen: Oh, sure. So, you know, I started as a computer programmer. Then I realized that I didn't want to sit in front of a computer. I can't I'm too wiry. So, I realized that I couldn't do like thirty-five years sitting in front of a terminal. I figured I had to do something that I could maybe go up and down or move around, something like that. So, I said, OK, I have to branch out from there. I started reading these manuals on telephone switches, PBXs on how like if you remember the old days, cold waiting, we still have it, call waiting, caller I.D., transfer, all those kind of things, running the wires, cables, copper, fiber optics. And so, I started just reading manuals about it. And then I, yeah, this is funny. But anyway, I met a telecommunications technician that I told them how I thought his job was awesome and I asked them for the password, for the switch, the telephone switch. He gave it to me and then I just started using all my knowledge of just started hacking into this, hacking this thing and doing all sorts of really cool stuff. And so, I realized, like, wow, this is this is another fun thing that I can do. So, I started actually doing that for a living for a while. I enjoyed it. I was challenged with networking, being a network administrator, actually running and installing a network way back when the original started with IBM token ring. And then I had a friend that I used to go boating, avid boater and and so ship to shore calls were very expensive. I run into this guy who's got this handheld radio, with this antenna, 20 feet tall. I'm like, what in the world is that? And he tells me, oh, I'm making a ship to shore call on my radio for free. Like what? Tell me more. So anyway, I got an FCC radio license, and I started getting into the getting into that for various reasons. And this was all before cell phones were around. And so, it was like having a cell phone. But you might have to extend the antenna up to three or four feet. And but it was cool.
And so anyway, all these things, all these hobbies and experiences and jobs that I had all prepared me to work where I currently do now at Miami International Airport. And I'm the superintendent of the telecommunications technical shop division as well, and where basically we do most everything that's electronic that's in the airport. We've got some networks. We've got some security systems. We have all the radios, a whole bunch of different kind. I used to manage their telephone switches, but that branch broke off. Let's see. We can run our own cable television system company basically inside the airport. We have over 50 different electronic systems that we install, manage, design, implement, troubleshoot and perform maintenance on. I don't know if you want to hear any more.
Sylvia: So how many people do you supervise?
Stephen: So, right now, there was the time that I supervised over one hundred people and that was crazy. Crazy, never. So now it's definitely a lot more manageable. It's 18 people.
Sylvia: OK, but over 100. So, you have a pretty big-time job. You took all of these skills and made a career out of it, and that's impressive. So, if you can, share with us one, but thinking about our audience and people who are visually impaired, people who are losing their sight, counselors who are working with them, if you have one insight about the employment journey for someone who's visually impaired, what would that be?
Stephen: One insight would be don't give up on any dream you have. Don't think you can't do something ever. Because you can. And one thing I've learned, especially with an airport and all the money that the aviation industry has, if there's a problem that seems insurmountable, there's nothing that throwing a lot of money at it to fix it. And they'll just keep throwing money at it until they get what they want. And basically, everything in life is the same way. What do they say? Time is money. But if you spend enough time with something, you can achieve whatever it is. There's no mountain that's too high that you cannot climb.
Sylvia: Awesome. We might not have the money to throw at it, but we have the time to throw it, right?
Stephen: Exactly.
Sylvia: I got to say, there are some things. I'm not sure, no matter how much time I spend, I'm still not going to run a marathon.
Stephen: But blind people do.
Sylvia: Oh, plenty. Plenty of my friends who are challenging me. Yes. So, Steven, do you have a quote, a saying, a life motto, something you can leave us with because you are just profoundly successful and inspiring. So, any quote, motto?
Stephen: Well, I wouldn't really say a quote, but a motto is that I can do anything that I set my mind to and we can do that. Maybe we don't have it all within ourselves, but we can do that through any kind of spiritual connection, family members, friends. It's a journey that we're all on together. And I would just say don't let anybody stop you from what it is that you want to achieve. The only thing, in fact here would be to summarize, is it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you tell yourself, well, I'm blind, so I just can't do that, then that's exactly what's going to happen 10, 20, 30, 40 years from now, you're going to be sitting there and you're not going be able to do whatever it was that you wanted to do. I am going to do that because that's the way I am. If there's something I'm going to do, I am going to do it. One way or the other, I'm going to do it. I went snow skiing a few years ago, totally blind. I've been before, but I've never been totally blind because I said I'm going to do it. And hey I will tell you it is an adrenaline rush. But there's nothing, if you tell yourself you're going to do it, you will do it.
Sylvia: Awesome. So, some highlights from our conversation today are get out there, learn skills, use the skills that you're developing through hobbies and make something happen for yourself. Don't wait for others to accommodate you. You make those accommodations yourself and be a problem solver. And finally, you can do whatever you put your mind to it. Just keep working on it. And it might not work out the first time, the second time, the hundredth time. But keep going, because even if it's that one thing, you might find there something you love even better. So, thank you so much, Stephen. This has been fantastic. I appreciate you and your willingness to inspire everyone to really get out there and make something happen for themselves.
Stephen: Well, it was my pleasure.
Episode 3: Gaining Success as a Notetaker and Assistive Technology Specialist with Braille (Judy)
In this episode, Judy Matthews joins us to talk about how her work experience and the skills she has learned led her to the career she has today.
Listen on Spotify Download Episode 3 Transcript
Transcript:
Introduction: Welcome back to Employment Insights with the NRTC. On this episode, we are joined by our host Sylvia Stinson-Perez and guest, Judy Matthews, continue listening to hear from Judy about her employment journey.
Sylvia: Today, I am just thrilled to have with me, Judy Matthews, who I have known for many, many years. In fact, maybe like 25 years. I go back to when I was in my probably 20’s and Judy was a teenager. So, you know, it has been glorious to watch Judy and her exceptional personal and professional success. So welcome, Judy.
Judy: Wow. Thank you. Thanks a lot.
Sylvia: So, Judy, I'm going to ask you a few questions. Tell us a little bit about your vision impairment.
Judy: Sure. I have an eye condition called Leber's Congenital Amaurosis. I was born blind. And the extent of my vision is light perception so I can tell that the lights are on or off in the room. But that's about all I can see. And that's been the case my whole life.
Sylvia: So, tell us about your work experience journey.
Judy: Sure. So, I would have to say my very first job was as a receptionist at the place where my dad worked at the time and my aunts and my cousin. So, it was a Saturday job. I was in high school. And, yeah, it was it was great to have had that experience. I got to get up at six, even though it's Saturday and I wish I could be sleeping in. Just being able to work on those customer service skills early on and things like that. Then I started college. My very first year of college, I participated in the work-study program and I was a teacher's assistant and did that for a year as part of my music therapy studies. I had to do practicums every semester, my last three years. And so, I had the opportunity to work in a variety of settings with a variety of populations. So, I learned a lot. I worked with mostly adults, adults with developmental delays, nursing home patients, adults with traumatic brain injuries. I worked at the VA with post-traumatic stress disorder patients and that was one of my favorites. I worked with Kids UCP, United Cerebral Palsy, and I also had a work experience at Easter SEALs. And I was when I was part of a summer transition program for teens. So, did that, of course, had an internship in music therapy at the Maryland School for the Blind and got to work with kids at zero to 21 with a visual impairment and various other disabilities. So in grad school, I actually was a note taker for a year for a classmate. And I also had a practicum and an internship in Vision Rehabilitation so with adults who were blind or visually impaired. I worked at Lighthouse Central Florida for about 17 years. I actually interned there and was able to secure a position there as a vision rehabilitation therapist. I also supervised the adult services program for the last six years that I worked there. Now I work for the, the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation here in Colorado and I'm an assistive technology specialist and I've been here for about a year, made a year at the beginning of this month. I don't know where the time goes.
Sylvia: So, one thing caught my attention that you said there. I mean, so many things because you've had just a really great career. But you said you were a note taker in college. A lot of times people who are blind have note takers. They aren’t the note takers.
Judy: Yep.
Sylvia: Tell us a little bit, just real quick about that.
Judy: So, one of my classmates had, I believe and I don't remember exactly her disability, but I think it was either dyslexia or she had a learning disability and she needed a note taker. And she heard me typing away on my at the time it was a Braille ‘n Speak. And she said, oh my gosh, you must take really good notes. Can you, you know, would you be interested in being my note taker? And I said, sure, why not? Definitely needed the money, so I got to do that for at least a semester, maybe a couple semesters, and so that was kind of cool.
Sylvia: That's awesome. So, you've had a long and successful career. So, what are three things that you wish you had known when you started out.
Judy: Well, probably one of the things that I would say has been so important and I probably realized the importance of this, although not to the extent that I probably should have. But even early on, I knew the importance of networking and getting to know people, because you never know when it's going to make a difference and get you a job or an internship. I remember when I met one of my supervisors at Lighthouse Central Florida, we were both in the Vision Rehabilitation Therapy Program at Florida State. She was doing the distance learning program because she was working full time and I was full time in the program and we had a class combined. It was a sewing class, I still remember. And so, she was there and I was, you know, thinking about internships. And my husband's also in the tech field. And so, at the time, he had just finished a certification and was looking for work. And so, of course, we had some time to mix and mingle in class. And I went and talked with Ginger and I said, hi, I'm interested in interning at Lighthouse. And, you know, I just wanted to meet you. And by the way, do you have any openings for an assistive technology specialist? So, I, she definitely remembered that over the years and said that it made an impression on her. I think that I just say that to emphasize that you just never know, like who, who is going to, like, make a difference in your career. And so, it's good to, to make those connections.
Sylvia: I will tell you, Judy, that in my professional career, I've had about five different places I’ve worked five or six at only one of those that I get, not, not because of my network. So that networking thing you're talking about is so important. And of course, with my job at the Lighthouse, the references came from my network. So networking, key. So that's one, networking. Number two?
Judy: Yes. Number two, I would say being your own advocate, because so many times I think that our biggest hurdle is not the blindness or visual impairment, it's people's attitudes. And so, I think having that confidence in yourself and that willingness to advocate and to let people know, yes, this is how I'm going to do X, Y, Z, even though I can't see, I do have reliable transportation to work because X, Y, Z, you know, I won't be able to see what someone is writing on the board, but here's how I'm going to get around that or whatever the situation might be, just having a plan and being able to articulate that and having that confidence in yourself because other people are going to see that and it's going to make a difference. So, yeah, advocacy would be my number two and I would say number three. And this was a really hard question. There's so much. But I would say always having a plan B and being flexible, don't put all your eggs in one basket and, you know, just assume that there will be a situation that won't work out the way that you plan. And just think about a way that you're going to be able to get that done a different way or just switch gears altogether. Now, there, there have been situations in my life where I'll have a plan and this is this is how I'm going to get here. And then it's pouring down rain. And guess what? I'm not taking the bus over there. So, let's see what else I'm going to do or, you know, just work just to bring it back to employment, you know, having lots of options. You know, if, if you're applying for work, don't assume that you're going to get that that one job that you applied for just, you know, keep your options open. And even when you think that this isn't the job that you had dreamed of getting or that you had planned on, or maybe it's a way to get your foot in the door somewhere or maybe it's just chalk it up to work experience. So, yeah.
Sylvia: Absolutely. So, adaptability, problem solving, and I love that, having a plan B. Sometimes you need a plan C, D and E as well.
Judy: For sure.
Sylvia: Right?
Judy: Yep.
Sylvia: But it’s about that never giving up, is that keeping going and pushing yourself on.
Judy: Yes, definitely.
Sylvia: So, what are the blindness skills that have helped you in your journey? And now you, you mentioned from the beginning that you don't have any usable vision. So that's a challenge. So, what are those skills that you think are critical for someone who is visually impaired or blind to have if they really want to be successful on an employment journey?
Judy: Gosh. So, as I was answering this, the first one that popped into my head was Braille. So, I put it there because there are so many. But I think that having being proficient in Braille has helped me throughout school and work to be able to be efficient, taking information down and accessing information. That's how I got one of my jobs. If I, you know, I was able to be a note taker for this person because I because of my Braille skills, you know, just in school, being able to have access to information, whether that be paper Braille or using a note taker. And so, of course, along with that is technology skills. I couldn't do my job without my tech. And now that I am an assistive technology specialist, you know, not only is it I mean, I get to, you know, talk about both sides of that because, you know, personally, I couldn't do my job without it. And then I know that the individuals I serve couldn't do their jobs without tech, even people that don't really have tech as part of their job description. But people still need to be able to log in and put in their time or email.
Sylvia: There’s very few jobs today. Right? Very few jobs where you don't have to use some technology.
Judy: For sure. Yeah. Along with the tech and the Braille, I would say organizational skills, even though they're not necessarily blindness specific because you don't have to be blind to be organized, but it really goes a long way. And I remember when I was in elementary school, I had my fifth grade TVI, teacher of the visually impaired. I remember she sat down with me one day and she said, we're going to read this passage and we're going to take notes and I'm going to show you how to do an outline. And, you know, first I was like, what is this about? I've never had anybody show me how to take notes, but I am so grateful to her to this day because it really helped me just to have a good foundation for that. And then, of course, orientation and mobility skills. You know, I can't imagine I mean, I moved from Florida to Colorado, had to, like, start over in a brand-new city.
Sylvia: That’s a big transition. Scary!
Judy: Very much so. I think my internship in Maryland was also another scary. I was pretty much moving across the country, didn't know anybody. And, you know, this was pre-Uber, Lyft and all the rest of the options that we have these days. I needed to get to the grocery store to get my food. And so, if I hadn't had the ability to walk there across the street and do what I needed to do, it would have been really difficult to be out on my own like that. So, and also, of course, the daily living skills, just being able to know what your clothes is so you can match for your interview. And I mean, I'm just throwing out just an example. But there's so much I mean, when I was in my second year of college, I decided to go to the Daytona Vision Rehab Center for the summer. I had taken vision rehab training before at the Lighthouse as a kid. That's where I met Sylvia. But I always had, you know, home to go to. My parents were there and I really didn't have to, like, fend for myself, by my own food, cook my own food, do all this stuff, you know, manage my own money. And I wanted to make sure that I knew that I could do it. And that's so important. Just being confident in yourself that, like, I've done this, I know I can. And so, I think that really gave me a foundation to be able to navigate everything moving forward.
Sylvia: Judy, that just brings up to me such a such an important thing. And I got a vision rehab degree kind of late about 12 years ago. And but I have always felt that that's so important is having those skills. And unfortunately, what happens is people have this rush to want to go to work and they want to get back to things. And it takes time, especially for those who acquire vision loss later or just who don't spend their whole life like you and I, where we had to learn those skills to just live everyday life. But who all of a sudden have vision loss or have substantial vision loss. Learn those skills. Taking that time, like Judy talks about to focus on getting those skills is something that can make all the difference in your level of confidence and your level of competence as a person who's blind. Once you have those skills, you don’t have to continue to work on them all of your life. But if you can build that solid foundation, it really does help a lot. And you mentioned Braille, Judy, and I think a lot of people feel like, oh, Braille is obsolete. I didn't grow up blind, so I didn't learn Braille. I I'll have to learn Braille. And I'm going to tell you that I've heard Braille when I was about 30 years old. I use it every day. I used Braille way before I *quote* “needed to” *quote* I could still see print for many years after learning Braille, but it sure did make so many things easier. I had file folders as a social worker that I needed to get out. And instead of having my nose on the drawer trying to find those files, I had them all Brailled and could pull them out. Having your spices braille and having, I literally Brailled directions to get to places that I needed to walk for before the iPhone.
Judy: Yeah, ok.
Sylvia: So, I didn’t get lost.
Judy: For sure.
Sylvia: There are so many things for organization, for labeling and at work. I mean, it's just so important. And so, when people say, well, I'm too old to learn Braille or, you know, it's hard. Nothing in life is really that easy. But when we take the time and really make the effort to learn, it really does make you a stronger person with skills that you can really use. And with the high unemployment rates of people who are blind, this is a key issue is that having these skills really matter.
Judy: Absolutely. Yeah, I can't imagine I know this isn't necessarily employment related, although, heck, I think socializing with your co-workers is a thing, you know, you need to be able to. So I can't imagine playing cards without knowing Braille like that would be really challenging. I know you can do it on the computer or some other ways. And there usually is another way to do everything, just about everything. But, yeah, I love I can't I love games and board games and cards and knowing it would be a lot more difficult without Braille.
Sylvia: A lot, a lot more difficult. So, there's so many things that would be a lot more difficult.
Judy: Yep, yep.
Sylvia: So, Judy, what are the soft skills that have been critical to your success? So problem-solving, those kind of things?
Judy: Yeah. So problem-solving, for sure. Communication skills I had that as my number one. I feel like so much hinges on how you communicate with people and having that follow up and really letting people know what your needs are. And it really goes hand in hand with, you know, your advocacy, because if you can't communicate what your needs are and be assertive about what they are, you know, it's going to be difficult and doing it in a positive way. So, I had positive attitude as my second one because people are looking. Employers want you to be solution oriented, not go in there. Oh, you know, this is not accessible. You know, blah, blah, blah. Of course, you're going to let them know something's not accessible. But here's how you can make it accessible. Can we do X, Y, Z to make that accessible for me or, you know, just being solution oriented when there is a situation, you know, and showing that I'm a people person. I get along with pretty much everybody, not a lot of people that I don't get along with and so having that teamwork and that cooperation, it goes a long way, you know, goes hand in hand with that networking and being able to give back. So not just like it's not just about how somebody can help you, but then how can you do something back for them. One of my mentors, when I was just starting out in the vision-rehab field, she was amazing with her humor. She could tell anybody just about anything. Like if we had something hard to say, I would go, Lynn, can you come tell this person that, you know, whatever? And she really taught me about using humor in my work and, and just in general, she helped me become more comfortable with that. So, I always felt like I had a sense of humor, but I wasn't as comfortable using it in the workplace and to, to you know, because there are times that things are going to be awkward to say or that people aren't as comfortable. You know, when you meet somebody that's just starting to lose their vision, you know, it really helps to get them comfortable and being able to, to talk about things. And so, yeah, I think humor was, was a big one for me once I got there. And so, of course, we talked about-
Sylvia: Humor makes you more relatable. It just makes you more relatable to people, too.
Judy: For sure. For sure it does. Yeah. And you know, even if you're nervous, like it really helps even for your own nerves, you know, make a joke or something. And yeah. Just problem solving and being flexible and having that plan B or C, you know, it really does help. And employers look for somebody that's flexible and is willing to look for other ways to get things done.
Sylvia: Right. So, you, you mentioned a positive attitude. And I have this great Helen Keller quote I wanted to share. And its, “Optimism is the faith that leads to achievement, nothing can be done without hope and confidence.”
Judy: I love that. That’s great.
Sylvia: I know.
Judy: Yeah. There are so many good quotes with that. My husband says I have rose colored glasses, so I'd rather have that than to be like cynical or pessimistic. I mean, there's enough of that to go around but.
Sylvia: I’m with you. I am with you, Judy. Yeah.
Judy: Let me have my rose-colored glasses. I'm good with that. Yeah.
Sylvia: So, share with us one major insight that you would like others who are starting out on their employment journey with vision loss or maybe in work transitions. What’s one major insight you’d like them to have?
Judy: Oh goodness. I mean, I think I've talked about a lot of the things that I had here. But I think one thing and I think we sort of touched on this before we started, but just not focusing so much on the obstacles. And this was hard for me in the beginning. So just going back to like elementary school, when I first started being mainstreamed. I did not have books in accessible format. They weren't in Braille. I didn't have recordings for the blind and dyslexic now Learning Ally. I didn't have that till I was in fifth grade. So, when I was in third, I think it was when I started doing more mainstream classes, I was really discouraged because I felt like I was falling behind. My family, my parents didn't speak English to be able to help me with homework. It was really hard. My brother. Good luck with that. He was a teenager and, you know, he, he tried, but so, you know, it was really hard. And so, I would just get discouraged by those little setbacks. Or at the time they seemed really big setbacks. But I made it through the class and I didn't fail. So, you know, now whenever I progressed through school and was able to, to see that, you know, even though there were challenges along the way, in the end I got it done. Being able to, to focus on the end, looking at the not so much on the little steps that I'm having trouble with was really helpful. For me, and like I said, as I as I went through school and college, I tried to just have that, you know, optimism or, OK, I'm struggling with this, but I’ll, I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to get it done and let's see how we can get it done. So, it's not always easy and it's not like you're ignoring those difficulties. You have to work through them. But just being able to-
Sylvia: Keep going.
Judy: Yeah, just keeping going, focusing and using your resources. And I've found that people in general want to help us, like they're not against us. So I think if you let people know and work with people, they're going to work with you. So I think those are some of the insights that have helped me along the way.
Sylvia: I just found this amazing quote that fits exactly what you just said from Marie Curie. “Life is not easy for any of us. But what of that? We must have perseverance and above all confidence in ourselves. We must believe that we are gifted for something, and that this thing must be attained.” I think that fits what you just said so well.
Judy: I love it. It's a great quote.
Sylvia: I'll send it to you.
Judy: Please, yeah, send me some quotes. I love quotes.
Sylvia: So, Judy, truly, you've had this really great successful career. And I think one thing that I admire about you is that where you could have stayed in one place, you kept moving upward and onward and exploring new dimensions of where you could give and where you could be the best asset to those people you wanted and needed to work with. And sometimes those are scary things. And so, I didn't send you this question in advance, but I think you can handle it. How do people handle those transitions that are scary? And I'm thinking about people who maybe have lost additional vision or lost vision or they've had to change a job or they had to move and all those kinds of scary transitions. I read that life is in the transitions. The scary parts sure are. What’s some advice you might have about facing those fears and getting through those transitions?
Judy: Well, I would say that having your support system and I know that not everybody has a great solid support system, but if you don't, finding that somewhere, whether that's, you know, with your family and friends or church or co-workers or find a support system. Because that is really going to help you through when you're having the tough days and you need someone to talk with about it when you need that little help, extra help that you know, you're going to need someone to ask. And it's OK to ask. Like, I know some of us and I've been guilty of this many times thinking that eh I'm just going to figure it out. I'm not going to ask anybody for help because you know, that pride thing. But, you know, sometimes asking for help is what we need to do. So having that support system and just pushing through that hard, you know, those tough times of, oh, my goodness, I don't know anybody here, I've got to build my support system again or, you know, I can't do the things that I used to be able to do because I can't see to read or I can't see to drive or I can't see to match my clothes and all the things that, you know, sometimes we kind of take for granted. But just realizing that there's usually another way to accomplish just about anything and asking people like, you know, find people that are going through similar situations and figure out how they're doing it and of course, can't say enough about skills and, you know, getting that training. But, you know, we're kind of biased on that because that's what we do.
Sylvia: That’s right.
Judy: But it's, it's so important. Just even like supporting one another, I think that connecting with people is huge because sometimes our family and friends who are not experiencing situations that we might be experiencing, they mean well and they want to help, but it's not the same as somebody that is living what you're living every day and can say, yeah, I know-
Sylvia: Connecting with those peer groups, those, those consumer groups, American Council of the Blind, National Federation of the Blind, Blinded Veterans
Judy: Yep.
Sylvia: The National Organization of Albinism. I mean, those are tremendous networks of people who can be that support system for you. And, you know Judy, I think often times and we've, we've all been there, we think we've got to be independent. We've got to show the world that we can do it. And I just have fallen in love with that quote from Helen Keller that says, “Alone, we can do so little together, so much.”
Judy: Together we can do so much, yeah.
Sylvia: And that interdependence. And you brought up earlier that, you know, yes, there are things that I need people to help me with, but I can reciprocate right back to them in different ways and understanding for me, independence for me means that I count on other people for certain things and that they count on me for certain things. So, independence for me really is about knowing there are things that maybe I could find a way to do. But why would I try so hard when it's going to take me 10 times longer and cost me so much more money when I could just ask for help and then I know I can contribute back to that person. So that's it.
Judy: Absolutely. Yeah, and I think like you said, Sylvia, we get so hung up on I got to be independent, but I think interdependence is so much more realistic and so much more achievable. And, and just I, I think it's, it's you know, I can't I can't say enough, it really is a Win-Win for everybody.
Sylvia: And to bring it back to employment. But isn't that what teamwork at work is all about? It's about interdependence. Teamwork at work is about interdependence.
Judy: Absolutely.
Sylvia: Our final question, Judy, which I think is a fun one, is to share with us one life quote, saying, motto, something that has helped you achieve the level of success and employment that you have.
Judy: I would have to say, and I know this isn't very deep or profound, but I would say “We will figure it out,” has been a motto that that I have lived by for a lot of years because there are going to be obstacles along the way in just about anything that we do. And just having that attitude of we will figure it out has really just helped me, like I was saying earlier, to focus on the outcome rather than these obstacles along the way. And there is another quote and of course-
Sylvia: I love that though. We'll figure it out. I mean that.
Judy: Yeah, yeah, we'll figure it out. I remember my husband and I wanted to go to the garlic festival, and I found out, by the way, that there are lots of different garlic festivals around the country. But we were going to one in Florida somewhere like West Palm or something. And we had called to, to see if we could get some assistance while we were there. And of course, we procrastinated and it was very last minute. And so, they were very willing to do it, but they couldn't pull it together at the last minute with like just a few days to spare. So, we just said, you know what, we're going to go anyway and we're going to figure it out. And we did. And we had a great time and we were glad that we didn't let that stop us or say, oh, well, you know, I'm not sure how we're going to get around there. Like, we just used all our tools. I mean, we have both have great orientation and mobility skills. We used Aira, we sent them a map of the event and we said, can you give us the lowdown on this and how these things are laid out? And we took some notes and we, of course, asked around and got directions. And just throughout the whole day, we just felt like the right people were in our path and we just were glad that we can-
Sylvia: And my guess is you got lost a couple times, but that was probably the cool part where you met somebody cool.
Judy: Absolutely. Yeah, just a couple of times. Lots of times. But we did. We did. We met lots of cool people along the way and we had a great time. And sometimes you get lost and you find things you weren't looking for.
Sylvia: Right. Well first off, I can't imagine going to a garlic festival. I'm all about the chocolate festival. But, you know, to each his own, to each his own.
Judy: Ooh, want to go there too! They had some. They had garlic ice cream, Sylvia. And yes, I had to try it.
Sylvia: Hmm… that’s all I’ve got.
Judy: My husband not so much, he tried it. He didn't like it. It was pretty good.
Sylvia: That's, that’s the whole Hispanic thing, OK? That’s where that comes from.
Judy: Yep, yep. But, but I will tell you that the national one like the biggest one is in Gilroy, California. And one of these days we're going to go to that.
Sylvia: OK. To each his own. You’ll figure it out.
Judy: Yep, yep.
Sylvia: Judy, it has been so great having you share your employment insights today. And thank you for your persistence in building your skills and your confidence and just figuring it out as you went along and being willing to share that with people on their journeys.
Judy: Sure. It's been a pleasure. I've enjoyed it. Anything that I can do to, if my experiences can help other people, then I'm always willing to share that.
Episode 4: Using Self-Improvement and Problem-Solving Skills for Success in the Workplace (Quan)
In this episode, we hear from business development manager and mentor, Quan Leysath. Quan not only shares insight into his employment journey, but he also shares how mentoring and developing strong blindness skills have helped towards his success in the workplace.
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Transcript:
Introduction: Welcome back to Employment Insights with the NRTC. On this episode, we are joined by guest, Quan Leysath, and our host, Sylvia Stinson-Perez. Continue listening to hear about Quan’s employment journey and how he gained professional development through volunteering for TASK and his journey on becoming a mentor for others.
Sylvia: Welcome, Quan. I am so excited to have you with us today. Quan, I have known each other for about five years and we were participating in a business training program together. And I was so impressed with Quan. And so, I've been able to watch his career over the past five or so years. And I just thought he would be an ideal guest for us to have on. So welcome, Quan.
Quan: Well, thank you so much. It's, it's a pleasure to being on. And I'd like to say that I was very impressed with you in the BMT program. This is a mentor mentee program. Therefore, I asked during that program for you to be my mentor. Yeah. So thank you so much for thinking about me.
Sylvia: Well, I can tell you and everyone, Quan that I've learned as much from you as you possibly could have learned from me. So, let’s start with you sharing a little bit about your vision loss journey.
Quan: So, yes, absolutely. So, my eye condition I have a macular degeneration. And what that is, is when your central vision deteriorates very quickly and over time, your peripheral vision deteriorates very slowly, but over time it does deteriorate. And to illustrate that, as a child, I was able to read regular prints. And throughout my lifetime I went from reading regular print to large print to then using a magnifier with a large print to then not even really being able to read print at all. But I still have some central, excuse me, some peripheral vision left.
Sylvia: Yeah and I'm sure that's pretty helpful for getting around to so.
Quan: Yes.
Sylvia: So, Quan, tell us about your work journey. You've had quite a few interesting jobs and so share that with us.
Quan: OK, well, I started out in the banking sector, in the private sector as a loan servicing specialist. Eventually I moved up to being a team leader for that for that team. I ended my, my career in the private sector as a underwriter assistant. The reason I left that, the private sector, is because I was facing a accessibility barrier. Our division was incorporating a new platform that wasn't accessible. So, from there, I moved on to work for the National Industries for the Blind, the central not for profit up in Alexandria, Virginia. While there, I worked as a price analyst. Eventually, I was promoted to Operation Support Manager, and then I was promoted again to a big supply center program manager. And then I thought about having this great idea of exploring something totally different. So, it's something totally new out of my wheelhouse. So, I applied and I get the opportunity to be a business development manager in a startup company, which is totally different from my previous experience. It was very exciting, very stressful, but had a lot of fun, learned a lot of things. But eventually it was time to have a more stable work life balance. And I moved on to being a contract manager at a not for profit that employs people who are blind and visually impaired. So that's where I'm at now.
Sylvia: Great, well that that is exciting, Quan. And you have had a journey and so. As we mentioned, I met you through a formal business training program, a leadership program. Share with us, and this was not required by your job, but share with us why you feel formal education, training programs and just even developing your personal professional skills are so important to your career success.
Quan: Absolutely. Why do I feel that? So, I came across a book and the title of that book is What Got You There- What Got You Here, Won't Get You There. And the contents of that book is really about changing your personal, personal behavior, therefore you can be more successful. But it was the title of that book that really, really stuck with me. It really told me all the talents, all the skills, all the knowledge that I had that got me into this whatever seat I was in at the time would not necessarily get me into that next seat. And what that title, what that statement does not say is that continuous self-improvement is required to get to the next seat. So, with our training program that we both participated in, I learned throughout that program different, different experiences, different knowledge and different, different areas of that I was lacking. It actually turned my perspective around in several different areas. I thought some departments were more. More, I guess, what would be the word? More of a luxury than a necessity, but through that program, I experienced situations and information that brought in my perspective, and I think when we're looking at formal programs in companies, training programs, certificate programs, even furthering your education outside of outside of training programs, I think that's something that everyone needs to sit back and look at, that this year is an opportunity for you to understand, sit down, your prejudices, your pre-prejudices, and really understand what's going on. I like to always tell a story about when I came in as a law specialist, my language was very, very direct. Here's the situation. Here's what, what I need. When can I get it from you? And over time, through training, through Toastmasters, through my BMT program, through even my MBA, just through having great mentors, I realized that that way of communicating is decent. It gets the job done. But how, how actively and how effectively have I benefited that relationship? Through that tone of communication and through these training programs, I definitely have improved on my communication skills, I'm able to collaborate and motivate and influence individuals much more effectively than I have in the past.
Sylvia: So, what really strikes me, Quan, from what you just were sharing, is that although the programs that you're talking about in many ways were very technical, skilled programs, they were about business skills.
Quan: Yes.
Sylvia: Yet the things you walked away in that you remember and that you grew in were soft skills like communications and relationship building and understanding the team and collaboration. So, I think that's fascinating. Of course, I know you developed the technical skills as well, but you also really developed the soft skills and recognize the need to. And sometimes it's even just that recognition that you need to is by participating in things outside of our box or that are not required are so important. I found this quote from this guy, Gregory Wade, and it says, “Every single opportunity we're presented with gives us an opportunity to learn, to grow, and to be inspired and to share that with others.” And I think that really exemplifies what you're saying there.
Quan: Yes, thank you, that was, was an amazing quote.
Sylvia: So, you have stepped up to take on new roles, you’ve volunteered for projects and something that I think having been in a career for a while, is that in the beginning and I know that I've talked to you about this, in the beginning you have to say yes to a lot of projects. And that is how you get a lot of skills. You go to other departments and you say, I want to learn. I want to grow my skills. I want to experience what this other part of the team does. So, share with us a little bit about that, because I think that is so critical is that sometimes we get stuck in. Well, I'm just going to stay over here in my little cubicle and do my job and I'm not going to float out there. And truly successful people have gone past those boundaries and they've, they've taken on other responsibilities. And I will say that the more experience you have, the less you have to do that. But in the beginning, you have to do that a lot and then you can be a lot more choosy as time goes by. And I'm not saying not to be choosy about taking on other responsibilities, but you will definitely have to say yes, a lot more. So, tell us your perspective on that, Quan.
Quan: Yes, I absolutely agree with that, that philosophy. And thank you so much for teaching me that philosophy. What, what happens that a lot of times is that as a as a newbie to the career, you come in and you say, well, this is my job duties and you want to master you want to do the best job you can because you don't want to be exited, you don't want to have that pink slip on your desk. Right? But what happens is that you're siloed. You don't understand what comes before your, before your process, and you don't understand what comes after your process. You don't understand how your work impacts others and what happens when you start reaching out and start saying yes to those projects? One, you are going to make friends. You're going to make, meet colleagues. You're going to get exposed to opportunities and knowledge that you wouldn't have been exposed to if you're just sitting there with your head down, getting your work done. And what that ultimately does is it makes you more valuable in your position as an individual. So now that you know what Division A, B and C does and how your division affects that, you're more knowledgeable when it comes to if you need to if you need to improve your process If there's a gap out there and you can see a solution for it. Well, if I do A at this point in a process, then y’all don't need to worry about that. It’s taking care of shrink. That is so, so important. Additionally, when it comes to networking, when it comes to building your circle of friends and your circle of colleagues, find those individuals in different departments that you can reach out to and have them as a source. Actually, before this, this podcast here, I called one of my previous, previous colleagues in another department and I said, hey, you know, I just had a had a rough hour and 15-minute call, want to bounce this off you. If you can provide any other insight into what am I experiencing, you know, let me know. And lo and behold, three years ago, he was dealing with the same situation, same department, just a different person in that department. And he, he provided guidance on where he went right at, what he failed at and some suggestions for me to help me move forward. He asked me some questions and some favors. And I said, hey, this is where I’m at with his favors. And he's like, hey, whenever you deliver for me, I would truly appreciate it because I need it over here. So, it's so important to say yes at the beginning, I fully agree.
Sylvia: That's awesome. So, let's switch gears a little bit to mentors, because you might not have recognized that as a mentor moment, but that was such a mentor moment. And we can have formal mentors who are people who we have an arrangement with that you maybe meet with on a regular basis, or your company might have a mentor program where they assign someone to you. But more often is that we have these amazing people who are those informal mentors those people that are our go to people who we know maybe they've had a similar experience or they're just trusted people who we can get some guidance from. And a mentor doesn't tell you what to do. We know that's what I found this awesome quote from Denzel Washington “Show me a successful individual. And I'll show you someone who had real positive influences in his or her life. I don't care what you do for a living if you do it well, I'm sure there was someone cheering you on or showing you the way. A mentor.” So, Quan, you've sought out mentors in your life. How do you find mentors, use mentors effectively, and what positive impact have mentors had in your career and in your life? So how do you find them? How do you effectively use them? And then what's been that positive impact for you?
Quan: Well, I would not be where I'm at today without the people who've taken the time to pour their wisdom into me. I'm a hard worker. I'm a go getter. But I wouldn't be where I'm at today without my mentors. How do I go about seeking, seeking out mentors? Well, I do a lot of self-reflection. I realize and identify opportunities for growth for myself, and I seek that out in other individuals, if, if I see Person A that's great at collaborating, I'm going to reach out to that person and say, hey, this is my career goal this is where I want to be, I see that collaborating is, is huge for this position. I am, I'm at the bottom. I'm a zero when it comes to understanding and being effective at collaborating. How can I move from being where I'm at now to where I need to be? And that person is typically willing to just pour their experiences in their thoughts and even there, if they see roadblocks, hey, you're going to run into this roadblock. And this is a suggestion on how to handle it. I’m not going to tell you how to handle it. But here's a suggestion on how to get around this roadblock. And as you said, that cheerleader. Additionally, some mentors even act as well, what I call sponsors and a sponsor is a whole nother different level. There's someone that was willing to spend political capital, you know, to leverage their either their position or favor to get you in a position, get you into a conversation, get you into a room which would expose you to things that to a situation that you never would have been exposed to. And those individuals I give I, I really, I'm really thankful for my mentors and I'm totally gracious and thankful for my, for my sponsors that I think as my mentors also.
Sylvia: That's awesome. So, another good quote, “A mentor is a brain to pick, an ear to listen and a push in the right direction.”
Quan: Absolutely
Sylvia: And that was a John C. Crosby quote, but I love that because it's so true with sometimes a mentor just gives you that push you need.
Quan: Yeah, and the mentor is able to hold you accountable.
Sylvia: So, Benjamin Disraeli said, “The greatest good you can do for another is not to just share your riches, but to reveal to another person his own.” So, helping people see their capabilities, their talents, because a lot of times we underestimate our own abilities and our own potential in many ways. And so, someone to line up behind you and say you can do this is so important. But then to also say, how can I help you achieve this? So, Quan, what are the blindness skills that have helped you in your career journey? What what's really important? What are some really important skills that someone has to have?
Quan: Wow, let's see here. I will start off with the first line of skill I obtained was mobility, the ability to walk by myself, get from point A to point B. The ability to think on my feet and be flexible. Like if I run into a situation where they have road construction, I'm able to reroute myself and in a safe way, of course, but still get to that location on time. That is major when you're talking to someone in an interview space and you're they're asking you, OK, well, not to be not to be a jerk or anything, but how are you going to get to work when I, when I hire you? And if you're able to say, hey, well, look, I'm going to walk out my door, I'm going to walk to the bus stop, I'm going to get on the 715-bus stop, and I'm going to ride that bus until I get to whatever stop. And what I'm going to do after that, I going to get off. I would cross the road, walk three blocks, I'm going take a left and I'm going to walk into the office and I’m going to make my way to my desk. I mean, when you say that with confidence, that changes the whole game. I mean, because many of the many of the hiring managers have not met a blind person before. So, they're understanding, understanding of a person's capability is really it’s lacking, it’s lacking in the sense of they're just not informed. Right?
Sylvia: Yep.
Quan: The second skill, I would say, is the technical skills. So, I'm a Jaws user. And as a as when I came into using Jaws, a lot of things were accessible. When I got my first job at, at the banking industry, everything was accessible, right? When I was pushing to move into that team lead space and to that assistant underwriter space, 50 to 70 percent of things were not accessible for the job. But through my Jaws knowledge, through understanding, understanding other tools that are out there to my, for my use, I was able to adapt and make those things, make that job or make that experience accessible for myself.
Sylvia: Right. So, my next question is about the soft skills, and you’ve just mentioned a couple being a problem solver, being confident. So, share with us the soft skills that are so critical for success.
Quan: I'm definitely always I would say problem solving, being able to advocate, so that kind of goes for that communication skills because you have to communicate to the right audience, to their to the right audience in the right tone. Yes, you can you can vent to your friends about accessibility. But let's go with the solution, when you go to a person and, you’re, you’re boss with a disability issue, right? Additionally, things that have made me successful, I would say listening, listening for what is being said and what is not being said. And I followed that up with asking good questions and of course, doing my own research.
Sylvia: Well, I'm going to say that I like that you mentioned explaining with confidence how you were going to do something, how you were going to get to work, how you were going to use technology. We think that's part of self-advocacy is being able to say it with confidence. And you said that makes all the difference. And I think that's so, so true.
Quan: Yes, it is saying with confidence, it's something that you pick up and so it's not something that you pick up just observing life, you know, somebody can say the sky is red and that means nothing to a blind person, right? But if they say it enough with confidence, people around them are looking like, OK, what part of the sky is red that they're talking about there? Obviously, he sees it and I'm not seeing it. Let me let me check my glasses here. It, the person could be totally wrong. They're saying it with confidence. Therefore, they're influencing others around them to believe that he's seeing red.
Sylvia: And to just go with that is that when you say I can do this job, I know one hundred percent I can. And here's how I'm going to do it. Here's how I'm going to get here. Here's how I’m going to do the job. It speaks volumes, truly does. So, Quan, can you provide just one major insight that you would give to someone who's coming into a career, making a career transition, maybe because they've experienced vision loss, just something that you think is so important for people to really understand that are new to blindness or just new to a job.
Quan: Oh, wow.
Sylvia: That can really help them.
Quan: And if I can, I can give two pieces of advice.
Sylvia: You can give two.
Quan: OK, so there's in that, in that area, that space where you're looking at applying for jobs, like getting that first job or you're in that gap between two careers. Right. My advice is perseverance, because you're going to hear and receive a lot of no's and eventually you know that may start wearing you down. But just remind yourself you're looking for that one yes. And that's all you really need. That one person, that one organization says, all right, let's do it. Let's go out there. We’ll figure it out on our way. Let's make this work. So, for those individuals in that gap year, I would say just be persistent there. For those individuals who are entering their career or they are entering a new career from the gap year, I would say for those individuals practice continuous improvement that will serve you well in so many ways. When you're walking into a new career, so you need to learn, right? You need to learn what you're doing, what everyone else is doing around you. But also, you're as you improve on your communication, your knowledge about the industry, you're just going to get better, continue networking, continuing asking for great advice. Self-learning, self-improvement also, but just self-improvement there. Continue self-learning.
Sylvia: continue continuous self-learning because being a lifelong learner is really just it's something that's essential, essential because, well, number one, you never know when you're going to have a job change, a career change, a life change. You just never know. But also, if there's one thing we've learned is that you never know when things on your job are going to change. So, it just always being working on skills. So, one thing that occurs to me that as well as you were talking is that someone who is maybe new to vision loss or learning the skills they might go through, a lot of technology training, go to orientation and mobility skills training, do even do independent living skills training. And then they go home and they don't have a job yet. Yet, they don't continue to work on those skills. And if we don't use those skills, they get rusty. So, you've got to get out even if you have really, quote, nowhere to go. Well you need to go out and volunteer. You need to go out, walk the neighborhood, take the bus, use the paratransit, use the ride share, whatever it is you're going to use to get to work eventually you need to go out there and practice using that. Take that as an opportunity to practice and build those skills. And it takes years to become a really good traveler, a really good cane user, etc. So that's an opportunity to practice, practice those technology skills. Get on there write resumes, get on the Internet, look for jobs. Don't wait for someone else to do that for you. Make sure you're working on building those skills, because I find the more I use the computer, the more problems happen. So, the more I have to be a problem solver. It's so annoying. But it’s so true. But if I just let it sit, which one day when I retire, I literally am like, I don't want to see a computer again when I retire. But it's so true that the more we use it, the better you become a problem solver in the technology world. So, but if you're not using it, the same with your independent living skills. If you want to be a safe cook, you've got to actually cook. So, practicing all of those skills, even if you, quote, don't think you need them at the moment, you do because you need to build them.
Quan: Yeah.
Sylvia: So important. I love that persistence and lifelong learning. Great insights.
Quan: Oh, and can I add one more thing?
Sylvia: You want to add one more.
Quan: Well, you, you brought it up. When you used the word opportunity and volunteering, that is so important because you're able to utilize those skills in the volunteering, you're able to keep sharpening your toolset, right? And I would tell you this, nobody volunteers to turn down free labor, even if they had no, no understanding about what a blind person can do. If you walk up to them and say, hey, I will start doing this research for you for free, I will start typing your memos up for you for free, just give me an opportunity. Yeah. You are going to get somebody who says, absolutely, let's try. Let's see if this works. So, yeah, just wanted to kind of mention that.
Sylvia: And, you know, so Quan something else to say about that is sometimes, you know, people I've heard people say in my many years in this field, well, I'm not going to work for free. Well, you know that is technically you're not getting a paycheck, but you're getting a lot of experience.
Quan: Yes.
Sylvia: And truly successful people often volunteer outside of even their career, and I know you and I both volunteer, we have successful careers, but we also volunteer and my volunteer work has nothing to do with what I do as a for a job, nothing to do with it, and it is actually hard work labor. So, but I am learning stuff there. I'm networking. I’m socializing and it's just a good it's a good thing to do. So, don't think of it as quote, free labor. Think of it as an opportunity to learn, to grow, to network because you just never know. This has been a fantastic conversation. So, I'm going to ask you one more question. What is one quote, life motto, saying that has really that you live by? Like, this is like who I am. It drives me.
Quan: Ah. Zig Ziegler said something to the fact that I'll probably totally mess it up, right?
Sylvia: That’s ok.
Quan: It is something to the fact that, “Success, success only comes when preparation meets opportunity.” I think that's what it was. And, you know, I, I break that down on so many different levels, but that the preparation piece there, you know, that continuous learning that equates to continuous learning for myself. And then, opportunity. I mean, yes, a beautiful opportunity can come up, but if you're not prepared for it and it's just going to pass you by. So, yeah, I live by that quote. Just always continue improving, preparing for opportunities that may come that I expect to come. And then if something out of the blue comes up then, hey, if I'm prepared for it, then I'm going go after it.
Sylvia: So, Quan.
Quan: Yeah.
Sylvia: I know that you said you've benefited from mentoring, but now you are a mentor for people and you've even started a mentoring program where you work. Share with us a little bit about that and why you did it. And, you know, what's what what's that impact for you?
Quan: Absolutely. So, something one of my mentors drilled into me is that people have a lot of potential. And if you tap into their potential, you not only better them as individual, you better whoever they help and in the future. Right? So, when I came at my organization I'm currently at, I’ve seen a lot of just a lot of potential around me and, you know, on the side as a side thing, I was sending people classes and, hey, you know, let's have a conversation during our lunch time. And this got pushed up to it was supposed to be a negative thing, right? It got pushed up to the executive team that “Quan is taking time during his lunch talking to people about whatever.” And the leadership, senior leadership looked at as like, OK, well, hey, let's, let's put him in charge of this mentor program that we've been thinking about doing. So, when the idea was proposed to me like, hey, we already know that you're mentoring and they just put it out there. All the people I was mentoring on the side, that I just came in contact with and they're like, how about let's do a formal mentoring program? So earlier this year, I got a team together and we designed a formal mentoring program. And during the summer we actually kicked it off. So, we had 10 mentors, 10 mentees, some that we went out and recruited, recruited some mentors. And when I recruited some mentees, because just with our communication, our structure, we wanted to make sure that individuals who would benefit from this type of structured program would actually apply for the program. So, we set it up, we connected them. We set up a structure in which we designed a framework not to not a curriculum in which to control their interactions, but a framework, framework in which they could benefit for their interactions. And we, for, we wanted to start off with the 12-month program, but we said, hey, we'll, we'll start it for the six-month program, only to understand what we did correctly and what we did well and then take a lot of feedback from, from the experience and then improve on that. And then we'll for our next session, we'll push a nine to 12-month program out there. But it's been a excellent experience building a program and then also kind of managing the program now. It, it has not taken away from my mentoring responsibilities still during my lunch time, still call, check on my mentees, see how they're doing and see, see what the environment's like. Just listening to their tone, checking to see if they're feeling nervous, feeling tired. So, I give that word of encouragement, some other mentees I have to encourage and hold them accountable for, for not moving forward in their goals, in their professional development, because sometimes we all need that that push and that sense of somebody is watching me and somebody watching me that cares about my my future. So, they're only asking me to do this and ask me to do what I said I was going to do, because they, they know it benefits myself. Right? So, it involves all that. And I really do appreciate the time that I have to participate in as a as a mentor and also as creating this program to help other people get mentored.
Sylvia: And beyond the benefit to others and to you personally, you've had a career advantage as well because management saw, recognized and acted on that and you never know where that is going to lead.
Quan: Yes.
Sylvia: Great job.
Quan: Thank you.
Sylvia: That's brilliant. Brilliant, Quan. And I know that to be so true about you, I value as you as a friend. And just so thank you so much for being here. So, I'm going to leave with this great quote that I have loved being a mentor for you. But as I said, I have learned as much from you as you could have possibly learned from me. But I love this Whoopi Goldberg quote. And I mean, I've known this one for a little while. “We're here for a reason. I, I believe a bit of the reason is to throw little torches out, to lead people through the dark.” And that to me that represents mentoring. And so, thank you so much for being here and sharing your brilliant insights in your journey with us. You are fantastic.
Quan: Thank you so much for having me.
Episode 5: Any Job is Better Than No Job: Using an Interim Job and Mentorship to Find Full-Time Employment (Jessica)
Jessica Loomer joins our host, Sylvia Stinson-Perez, to talk about her employment journey. Jessica shares her journey of starting over in her career, tips on how she discloses her vision impairment, and how mentors have helped her along the way.
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Transcript:
Introduction: Welcome back to another episode of Employment Inside with the NRTC. In this episode, we are joined by Jessica Loomer. Continue listening to hear about Jessica's employment journey, her balance on learning when to disclose her vision impairment and how mentors have helped her along the way.
Sylvia: Well, I'm thrilled to welcome my friend and fellow colleague Jessica today. Welcome, Jessica.
Jessica: Thank you so much for having me. This is exciting.
Sylvia: Awesome, Jessica. Share with us a little bit about your vision loss journey.
Jessica: Yeah, absolutely, so I lost vision almost 10 years ago, which is crazy to think its time flies so fast. And when I was losing vision that first year or so, I was the same age and I was actually employed. So, I had a brand-new job. I had started that position. I work for a mining company like Mattel. I worked at that company, started in October, and I started losing vision by early November. So, it was pretty quick within that first month of me losing vision of starting this brand-new job. And by the time March had, I had vision loss in both eyes. So, it was a pretty rough start to that position. But I was actually on that job for five years. They were incredible to me. It was a super small company actually based out of Chile. We had a small office that I worked with. And I supported the entire sales team in North America and it was a family environment, honestly, so I had a ton of support, I got a ton of assistive technology and never missed a day of work and just honestly kept going. And because it was in the copper industry or it was on the commodities industry, I actually got laid off five years later. So, five years into vision loss I had to face getting a brand-new job and kind of the what's next. And honestly, I didn't really know what I was up against once I had lost lost my job and lost my vision because I had never faced that. And so I was actually unemployed for a year and a half while trying to find my next position and just kind of had the struggles and trials and tribulations of learning how to overcome vision loss and how to truly feel comfortable in my own skin because it was different. I was telling a lot of people that were strangers that didn't know me. And so, it was interviews and practice interviews and really kind of preparing myself mentally and emotionally and feeling confident that I could go talk to different employers, but also how I was going to carry myself. And it was an interesting of the year and a half.
Sylvia: And I know that you spent some time in a job that was related to your career or your experience. Tell us about that. What do you think you gained from that experience?
Jessica: Yeah so, during that year and a half of unemployment, I needed to do something for myself, a lot of it, a little bit of soul searching and a little bit of digging to truly find that confidence, to walk into that interview room and have a cane and sit down and have enough confidence that that interviewer did not see my cane and they see me for me. And that took me some time to get there. I needed I needed to get back into the workforce. I wanted to feel that worth. I wanted to get back out there and I was at a reverse job fair, I had interviewed a bunch of places. And I think we all kind of go back to the things that we love. And I love coffee. So I went to go work for Starbucks and it was one of the happiest three months of my life. It was awesome. Starbucks is great. They made sure that I was comfortable. We did a ton of things throughout the entire store to make it accessible for me from like gigantic sharpies so I could label things and I could restock and things like that to bump dotting parts of the store so I'd be able to navigate and be able to identify things without having to ask for help. They were extremely accommodating, and it really got my confidence up. I saw that there was a way to accommodate anything you want to do and still feel productive and successful and part of part of a team and part of a community. And yeah, I prospered in that job. I flung garbage with the best of us. I made coffee drinks. I was up the front chatting with people. And I all of a sudden got to come back to, like, who I was again. My dad actually has a picture when he came to visit me at the store and I’m behind the counter. And he's like, this is the happiest I've ever seen you. And I mean, that's years ago. And I'm a pretty happy person. But it, I was I was beaming. I was really happy. I was confident. And I love that job. That was my pivot moment.
Sylvia: That's awesome. I do love me some Starbucks coffee. I love that you didn't see that as a step backwards. You use that as a bridge to your future. And that's amazing. And I think you learned you said a lot of lessons there. You learned confidence. You learned how to adapt things. And you just said you learned that anything was possible. So that's awesome. I know that during this process, you also really thought about and created strategies around disclosing your vision loss. So, share with us a little bit about that for your your stance on disclosing how you learned to disclose what you did.
Jessica: Um honestly, a lot of it was trial and error, but a lot of it came from me gaining confidence throughout that year and a half while I was looking for a job. And I would sometimes I would go in with a cane and sometimes I would go without a cane. And you knew it was bad when I walked into an office building that was full of glass and white chairs. So, there's no high contrast. There's nothing that you can see. I'm very much low vision. And so, I knew I was like at that point, I was like, this is not even smart. This is not even safe for me. But then I learn at the end of the day, we're all people. We all have something, right? Like we all have something that we're going through. And I learned that, like vision loss is just mine. And so, it took me that confidence to get there that like, yeah, I may be a low vision, but let me tell you what I can do. And so, I got to the point that I would walk into an interview and I just walked in and I sat down and I quickly had everything organized. So, I had a portfolio that had my resumes. I knew exactly what way there were. So, when I sat down and whoever was sitting at the interview table, I handed them the resume is the perfect the way that they should be. And I close my book and I get so excited to be here. And I just kicked off and I didn't even acknowledge vision and I didn't acknowledge my cane because it's not who I am in the sense of my productivity. My productivity is based on my skills and my expertise and what I bring to the table. My cane is just part of my personality. My blindness is my personality. That's who I am. And They get to learn all about that once they hire me. But that doesn't affect who I am professionally in a sense of my abilities.
Sylvia: And I know you develop a specific way to share with employers or potential employers how you do a job, what accommodations you would need. Tell us a little bit about that.
Jessica: So I actually had a lot of questions when I was interviewing and some appropriate, some not appropriate. And I was OK with that because I thought the more questions people asked, the more comfortable they would feel, because honestly, at the end of the day, I'm interviewing them as much as they're interviewing me. And I would want to feel comfortable to asking for accommodations and really kind of having that open conversation with whoever I'm going to be employed with. So of all the questions I kept getting asked, people would ask, well, what can you see and what do you need and how did you get here today and all of these questions? So I actually developed a video with my VOC rehab teacher, and it's in the video kind of showing what I how I use the CCTV and what I what exactly I'd be looking for. And it's a video of me using those tools. And obviously I pull the speed way down, but it shows me typing and it shows the audible of JAWS kind of speaking back to me and what it is. That video was helpful for other employers and interviews to be able to see like, oh, that's easy. That's possible. And so it kind of bridged that gap because honestly, there's a lot of employers that I've never heard of assistive technology. They don't know what JAWS is or CCTV or what does it entail. And that's kind of a lot of the big scary of hiring somebody because they don't know. So if I was able to have that video to show them, check it out. It's not that hard. Look at how easy I can work. These are just two devices and two software things that enable me to do my job and I'm still doing it. That was an easy and it made the conversation way easier.
Sylvia: And it was a short, short video, very short and to the point. And I love what you said there, too, Jessica, is that not only is the employer interviewing you, you are also interviewing them because it's so important that we remember that sometimes I think we're so desperate to have a job that we don't remember that having a job where we feel we fit, where we feel comfortable and confident is just as important. And so that is a really important point. So talk a little bit about then once you're on a job, how do you feel about disclosing to your co-workers about your vision loss and the accommodations you need and some strategies that people can use to make that a good, good experience?
Jessica: For sure. It's been a little different, especially with covid, where there maybe some coworkers of mine that don't even know that I'm visually impaired and some that I do clearly disclose to them just to ensure that we can work better together. I work in a in a tech company and actually oftentimes I'll be doing design reviews or kind of walking through a process with them and they'll say, like, OK, cool, let me share my screen with you. And I'm like, OK, that's fine. And then they'll start saying, yes, this thing over here or is it down here or over there? And I'm like. Can you hold on a second? I actually don't know where over there is, and so I'll kind of like take a step back and like, if you don't mind, I can actually explain to you what I see in order for us to kind of better work together. Quickly they're very apt to listen in like, oh, I had no idea. I'll share like apologies for kind of the hold back. But let's kind of talk about this really quickly now. I want us to be able to knock this out faster in the future. So I'll say, like, I have low vision, my screen is extremely zoomed in. And so when you say over here, over there, I don't exactly know where you're talking about, if you can maybe give me some direction on what part of the screen you're looking at or if you could highlight, I mean, obviously, there's a lot of things that work for different people, but you start to learn like what kind of navigational tools and direction you can give somebody that will say, like, is it the upper left of the screen, the upper right of the screen, like something that they can kind of resonate with so they can understand that, like you're so zoomed in. Oftentimes I will share my screen just so that they can kind of see the magnitude that I am magnified at. And then they're like, OK, I get it, you need more direction. And so we kind of have these aha moments. And I'm just honest, I think honestly, that year and a half of me being unemployed and me really kind of gaining that confidence and getting back, the longer you do it, the more open you are about it, the more comfortable you get with it and the more comfortable I am to be like hey I can't see that. Is there any way you can help me out or like can you point me in the right direction? I don't have any shame in it at this point. And I think honestly, it takes time. I’ve had vision lost for nearly ten years. This is not like this was a marathon to get to the point I'm at today. And it's it takes time to get to that point where you're comfortable saying can you help me out? Can you point this in the right direction or hey, by the way, like, I actually have a vision impairment if you could give me better directions so we can be on the same page. I would really appreciate that. And it's not a fast moving thing and it takes time, give yourself some time for that. But all of those conversations have really helped me ensure that everyone's on the same page. I actually have a designer that I work with. Whenever we're talking about something, he's like, alright Jessica I'm going to put this in the upper left hand corner so we're all in the same spot. So he always puts it there. And that makes it super easy for me to always find. And having those conversations early make it super easy. So now I don't have to stop anyone in the middle of our conversation saying, like, I don't know what you're talking about. I can't see what you're talking about on the screen because everybody already knows and everyone will stop and kind of say like, oh, wait, hold on, let's zoom in for Jessica. And people are really that are considerate. If they learn that about you, they want to make sure that everyone feels comfortable and on the same page once we have that way more productive together. And it's been great. So I guess my best advice for that, honestly, is take baby steps, take steps to sharing that with other people and sharing it with employers and coworkers. You don't have to do it all at once. It doesn't come all at once. It's the confidence thing and it takes time. But you'll get there for sure.
Sylvia: That's awesome. That's brilliant. And I think that part of that was it took some courage to just step forward and say, I can't see and these are the accommodations I need. Let's work together. And it is about working together to meet those needs. That's awesome. Great, great recommendations there. I know that mentors and mentoring has been an important part of your career journey. So share with us a little bit about how you select mentors, whether informal or formal, and some major lessons learned from that whole mentoring process.
Jessica: I love my mentors. I have a few mentors today, and they've evolved and grown and the biggest thing for me is the most important thing when you're looking for a mentor is to really ensure that you have the same beliefs, that there's multiple ways to kind of do something. And if you're on the same page with somebody and what you believe in and I'm not talking religion or anything like that, I'm talking like what you find true to yourself and what you think is best for yourself, because at the end of the day, your mentors is truly looking out for you and wants you also to be successful. So you know that they're the person that you can count on, because no matter what you're going to say or what decision, they're not thinking about the business. They're not thinking about the company. They're not thinking about your team. They're thinking about you, too. And that's the most important thing to kind of look at. I've had so many mentors along the way of kind of people giving me advice and giving me direction, helping me kind of point myself in the right direction of what career path to go down, what industry, how to handle a situation on my team. Those are kind of things that I try to mentor for just to kind of get a second opinion, get an outsider view. They're not in my day-to-day everyday life. And I think it's great to kind of have that step back. Another person removed. I say like, here's the situation. Here's what I have. What's your opinion and how can you help guide me? Or what, what's your opinion if I went to my BP and said this? And they're like, oh, don't do that, Jessica, or that's a great idea, that shows initiative. And so you can find them anywhere. I mean, honestly, one of them was an AT instructor I actually worked with directly and eventually, like our working relationship just evolved. And he said he saw so much potential in me and wanted to help me get to the next level. I would go to lunch with him. And We just kind of talk about strategy. And I was always kind of thinking of like, what's going to be my next move, what's going to be my pivot point? And so we would kind of talk through those things. And it's an evolving process. I talked to him here and there now and today. One of my mentors actually works at the same company that I do, but we work nothing at all together. But it's great to get her outsider experience. And I think you find them in the coffee shop. I think I'm a pretty social person. So you just start chatting with people, learn those people that you begin to like resonate with and that you kind of click with. I always look for people above me and kind of leadership level as well. I, I often will be observant. You know go into meetings where you are part of leadership is maybe directing, you are kind of giving a presentation and see how they handle themselves, see how they present to other people or how they handle questions. Is that how you want to handle it too? Is that how you want to like what's their perception of, like of your team or what's your perception of them? Is that how you want to be perceived as well? And I look for those people that I have high respect for leadership. Reach out to them. You can say I'm actually looking for a mentor. Would you be willing to meet with me once a month and make the cadence? Not I would say not as often, because you don't want to come across too forward or it seems like it's too much of a commitment for them. But would you be willing to meet with me once a month? I would love to bring something and I bring an agenda every time professionally because I have questions. These are situations I'm running into. How would you handle it? These are conversations that I'm having. Do you what, how would you answer these conversations? Or I like to kind of take my team and move it this way. And I want to be able to have this pitch for an additional team member because of X reason. What do you think? And I kind of have these and these are these are all kind of ideas I maybe would have in my head, but I wouldn't move on them until I would talk to a mentor and say, like, give me your opinion. And that's been super successful for me as well. For a professional mentor, personal mentor is just kind of honestly, you begin to see them as you start networking. I cannot rave enough about how much you should be networking, find any anything like whether it's a professional network. There's obviously a ton of them. And there's there are way more online now ever since covid or or you want to run or you want to do sew, or you like cooking like all of those, you never know who you're going to run into, of whether it's a hobby or a professional interest. And as you begin to develop those relationships, you will begin to find those people that you click with that maybe I mean, you never know. You could be running, I could be running with a VP of a different company that I would want to work for, or I could be cooking next to somebody that does something else that I really want to learn from. I think there's always opportunity. So throw yourself out there and just network, and even if it's virtual, I think those are opportunities for connections are huge, and that's where I think the personal mentors come from. And so those two things, they really will help you kind of take you to the next level. They'll give you insights that you maybe didn't think of, especially if they're older or have a different position or a different perspective. They've been truly valuable. So that's that's literally been my rock in the last five years. I've made a lot of career changes. I've picked up my life in Tucson, Arizona, and I've moved to Denver, Colorado, for a job. And I've never thought anything twice because the best move I've made. But I reached out to my mentors, my family, my friends, and to ask for advice. And all three of those groups of people are super important to me and their opinions are valuable. And I wouldn't be here today being able to be as successful as I am and how happy I am today if I didn't have those rocks to be able to lean on.
Sylvia: That's awesome. I love how you said somebody saw potential of you because you are truly fantastic and super successful and just a total go getter. So my next question, Jessica. That was great About mentors. So many important points you make there for formal and informal mentors and having set up a meeting schedule, having an agenda, having specific discussion topics or questions that really bring such value. And I'm going to say that I'm sure many people consider you a mentor as well, Jessica. I think an important thing is sometimes people feel like, oh, I don't want to ask them. They might feel like I like they're going to be overwhelmed by another person asking them. People are honored when you ask them to be your mentor, or you ask for assistance. They truly are. I mean, I'm super fortunate to get to be an informal and formal mentor to several people. And it's an honor and a privilege that I don't take lightly because I agree with what you said. I would not be where I am had it not been for those people in my life. And I still have mentors. I think that you always have mentors in your life or you should always have mentors in life and you can be a mentor while also have mentors. So my next question is. Thinking about the individuals who might be listening to this podcast, it could be vocational rehabilitation counselors, it could be people who are visually impaired, seeking out assistance from a VA counselor or who are visually impaired could be employers. So what’s some advice or recommendations that you would think that you hope all those listeners would really take from this that one piece of advice you had?
Jessica: I would say keep pushing, honestly. So I share this often that someone will tell me if they have just lost vision. So what should I do next? And my answer and question always to them is, what do you love? What's your passion? What do you want to do? And then they'll respond to me and say, I don't know. But I'm like, try something out. There's no harm in jumping into a job and realizing you don't like it. It's OK. Like, it's totally OK. If you jump into a job and you're like, this isn't for me, then try something else. And I think that's key is that it's totally OK to try something. I think it's respectful for the employee and the employer at that. Like jump in there, give everything you've got. If you don't love it, it's totally OK to try something else. What did you love from that job or that position that you can kind of take to the next position? And what are you looking for differently? And that's honestly how I fell into my position where I am today is that I found the things that I love. I know I'm really great at doing Excel spreadsheets and I love that. But also, I know I'm great at project management, so how can I pull these together and what's the outcome I'm looking for? And so talk with your VR counselor or think about what are the strengths that you have and what position with that kind of be. And they'll be great to be able to help you kind of pick out. But just getting out there, I think the biggest leap is I was just actually just sharing this with somebody that had lost vision a couple of years ago. And he was having a hard time kind of jumping to that to a position because he was scared he would pick something wrong. And I said there's no reason for picking something wrong or no harm in that, because what's the biggest thing that you need to make sure you're doing next is still moving forward. And it honestly doesn't matter. Like that's why I believe that Starbucks was a pivot moment to me instead of being seen as like stepping back or anything like that, me sitting in a Starbucks parking lot waiting for my ride to come for, gosh, like an hour or two based on that window for paratransit that gave me so much opportunity to really kind of reflect and think back. What do I want to do? What strengths do I have and where do I want to go from here? And honestly, I went from Starbucks to working at the University of Arizona in an Accademia position. No one thought twice of the position where I was going from Starbucks to the university. I was able to really pick right back up where I left off. No one thought of that, of me having that lull in my employment gap and no one thought anything of me having a retail job or a food industry job. They continued to see me moving forward. And so don't be so hard on yourself. Get out there and try it. And it's OK if it doesn't work out, that's not failure at all. Failure is not moving forward. You want to keep being able to go in and try something. And the employer honestly is going to find it much more respectful from you. If you're like, honestly, this isn't working for me. These are my interests, and this is just not my fit. And they'll be like, respectfully, that's fantastic. And maybe they'll say to you, Oh, that's what you're looking for. We might have something different for you. Or they might say, like, wish you the best and I can give you a recommendation for your next job. You know there's so many opportunities that you could open doors with having that respect for yourself and for your employer.
Sylvia: So keep moving forward. And I'm going to just throw in here. I mean, this has been such fantastic advice. If you can't find a paid position, part of that keeping moving forward is if you can't find something that where you're volunteering because keeping that strong work ethic, getting up, going to work, doing projects, keeping your skills, using the technology, using the mobility skills and accessing transportation. And I'm sure while you were out there sitting waiting for an hour for the transportation to come, you're like there must be a better option. And so figuring those pieces all out, all of those things just are so important. This has been fantastic. So to wrap it up so give us a life quote mission, something that you live by that you think has really led to your success. I mean, not that you haven't already given us such gems, but one more.
Jessica I actually have this quote on a gigantic poster in my room and it says, be fearless in the pursuit of what sets your soul on fire.
Sylvia: Love it. Thank you, Jessica, so much for this great information and being willing to share and to share so authentically.
Jessica: Thank you so much. I love to share my story because even though life is great right now, life was hard before and we all can get there.
Episode 6: Finding Accommodations for Retinitis Pigmentosa as a Social Worker (Pat)
In this episode, our guest, Pat, joins us to talk about her eye condition that developed later in her career, her challenges, and her advice for others in a similar situation.
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Transcript:
Introduction: Welcome back to Employment Insights with the NRTC, we're excited you joined us for this episode. Today, we were joined by our host Sylvia Stinson-Perez and our guest, Pat. Keep listening to hear about Pat's journey with an eye condition later in her career, her own challenges that arose from that, and her advice for others in a similar situation.
Sylvia: Welcome back to NRTC Employment Insights. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Pat, who shares a work history with me. Pat is a retired social worker and I worked as a social worker for a number of years. So, Pat, welcome.
Pat: Hello. Thanks for asking me to be here.
Sylvia: Thank you for being here. We'll just jump right into the questions.
Pat: OK.
Sylvia: Pat, share with us just a little bit about your vision loss journey. When did you get diagnosed? What could you see at that point and how does that impact your life?
Pat: Well, it would be over 20 years ago now, I was still driving, of course, and that was wonderful. I started to notice things related to driving in particular. I would be driving along the road and from my perspective, a car would suddenly leap out of a side street. What was happening, of course, with retinitis pigmentosa, with RP is, that your peripheral vision shrinks. They were just suddenly appearing in my field of vision is what was happening. But as far as I was concerned for some time, people were not being careful and they were leaping out of side streets without any respect for caution or me. So, the other thing was that I had a couple of fender benders. I lived on a cul de sac and I would pull out to the main street. And when you have all your vision don't really turn your entire head to the left or right to see what's coming. So, I wasn't doing that. I would be glancing. But of course, my glance was not taking in everything it needed to. And, you know, I would pull out in a couple of times I got dinged. So that was a clue to me that there was something going on. And I sort of offered myself up for an eye test, which I didn't have to do, but I did. And I went for an eye test and then for the field of peripheral field test and discovered at that point that I was well on the way to losing my peripheral vision. And it was at about 60 percent at that time, which sounds glorious at this point. So, I was sent to an ophthalmologist for, you know, to a specialist to have a better look at my eyes. And he diagnosed me as having retinitis pigmentosa. And I asked at that moment, “How long will I be able to drive?” knowing that that was something that would be affected. And he said, “Well, like, it's now like this minute, unless you go for biopics. I opted, so using the two eyes to the test, which I did, and passed and scraped through driving for a couple more years. So, driving was kind of the pivotal thing that was giving me the clues and that really set me on the path of understanding what was going on.
Sylvia: And you know, Pat, I will say that people with macular degeneration and glaucoma and even to some extent diabetic retinopathy report similar kinds of things. And, you know, a couple of those, they might add reading into that, too. But driving does tend to be or getting around does tend to be that first kind of clue for a lot of people who experience vision loss a little bit later
Pat: Yes.
Sylvia: So what kind of work were you doing at that time?
Pat: I was working as a social worker in a hospital setting and, you know, in the capital city of Canada in Ottawa and working in physical rehabilitation. So I was working in a stroke program and a traumatic brain injury program. And over the course of the time after my diagnosis I was also working as the clinical leader of the profession in that hospital. So when I was first diagnosed, I was a full time social worker working with families and patients, dealing with loss and physical loss and all the emotional impacts of that. And sometimes, you know, people were the vision was affected by a stroke and brain injury. So but that wasn't really on my radar as something which sort of relatable to me at that time, not initially anyway. Certainly, did become more something that I became much more aware of, obviously. And then later, as the clinical leader, I was working part time in, you know, front line practice in the hospital and part time as in a more administrative clinical practice role.
Sylvia: And that must have had some challenges. Pat, as you were experiencing progressive vision loss you have to get around a lot, moving to different areas, interacting with people. But then now you're also having to do paperwork and computer work. So what kind of tasks were specifically impacted by your vision loss? How is your job impacted?
Pat: Well, the paperwork, the sort of computer work, et cetera, as the clinical leader was actually easier because I had the central vision enough to be looking at a computer with reasonable amount of ease. So that was not impacted. What was impacted was running meetings, for example, where I would be in the lead to organize and then run a meeting of 20 social workers around a table. What I had to do was to sit at these long conference type tables. I would have to sit at the very end so that I could see the people to the right and left of the table. If I had been sitting at the long end of the table, I would have been having to move my head constantly back and forth to see who was there. And even as it was the people to my immediate right and left, as time progressed, I started to lose actually awareness of them and sometimes would even forget they were there because they were not in my field of vision. So I started losing people in meetings would be one thing and finding it more difficult that someone would put up their hand to speak. I wouldn't see it. Someone would speak and I would not immediately know where the voice came from. I would have to start using voice recognition more often to know who was there. And all that creates a lot of anxiety. Of course, when you're doing something that you've been doing very well, I thought for a long time. And then suddenly you're having to pay such very great attention to these kinds of details. Where are people? Who's trying to speak? Who's not spoken? All those kinds of things were quite impacted in terms of the patients and families, those that were sitting in front of me. Yes, that was relatively easy, too, because we were in a sort of static position. But over time, as my peripheral vision began to diminish, I would start to lose parts of their body, as it were. So a person sitting in front of me, I would see down to their knees when I had 60 percent peripheral vision. And eventually it would be that I lost their hands and then their elbows and then they would be left basically with just their head and shoulders. So, working with a lot less information about how people were coping and what their hands might be doing. Were they fidgeting? Were their feet tapping? I had all that information was lost. And again, having to rely much more on what they were saying and how they were sounding.
Sylvia: And many different eye conditions, like macular degeneration, et cetera, have peripheral loss in just different ways. In macular degeneration, you might not be recognizing faces which can be just as much anxiety producing. So, Pat, did you disclose your vision loss or that you were experiencing this vision impairment to your co-workers, to your supervisors? If so, how did you do it? How did they respond?
Pat: I kept pretty quiet for as long as I could to be honest. For all the reasons that you might imagine, just not really accepting what was happening. People weren't in many ways noticing. So, the people I did disclose to were my colleagues first, I guess. You know, at these meetings, I would let them know that I wasn't always picking up what was going on in the room visually and almost without exception, people would say, “Oh, no, I had no idea,” or “You do so well,” or “I didn't notice.” That sort of thing. To be fair, however, I didn't necessarily explain the condition. I didn't explain I have been recently diagnosed with an eye condition called this, and these are the effects of it, which will progress over time. I would say sort of vague kind of things like, you know, “I don't see very well” or “My vision is not that great now.” So pretty vague kind of things, which understandably people maybe responded in vague kind of ways as well. So, in terms of the people in sort of management upper, you know, beyond me positions, I did not disclose to them. No. I guess even though I knew I wasn't going to lose my job, there's always that sort of fear that you're going to be discriminated against, that there's going to be someone who's somehow going to say, “Oh, this person is going blind. Why are they still here?” This sort of thing. So, there was that kind of, again, another layer of anxiety about keeping the job, despite the fact that there was no reason whatsoever to think that anything was going to happen. I was in a union for one thing. And, you know, I had excellent evaluations. There was nothing on the surface that would suggest that. But still, it was an anxiety. So, I kept pretty quiet and kept pretty quiet until the kind of things that started happening more with patients. Because in a hospital, lots of people with wheelchairs, which gradually disappeared, again, from my view, a person approaching me or maybe sitting outside my office in a wheelchair, if I opened the door, there was a point at which I unless I looked down, I didn't see them. So that started to get really scary. And then I started to say more.
Sylvia: And so how many years did you work past your diagnosis before you retired?
Pat: I worked full time in the combination frontline and practice leader for ten years. And then I retired and went back part time frontline for four more years. So, 14 years.
Sylvia: OK, and so you just mentioned that you did start to say more. Knowing now what you know and just having the experience, if you could go back, would you have maybe disclosed earlier? Asked for more accommodations? What would you have done differently? What would have helped you, I guess, is really what I'm asking is. Would it have made the process easier if you had asked for accommodations or even just been more open about it?
Pat: I think one thing I would have done would be to be more specific about what was happening, rather than the sort of vague kind of statements I was making. Because, you know, even now it's I say something in a store, you know, I might bump into somebody? I say, “Oh, I’m sorry, I don't see very well.” Even if I have a cane with me. Somebody just recently said, “Oh, yes, I need some new glasses as well.” As if the things are equivalent. This is even with a white cane in hand. So I think I would be more specific. I would for those who I thought would listen or who needed to know, I would explain the condition, what happens, and that it's not static that it's progressive, and that things will get, you know, more challenging and that they should be aware of that and that I may be asking for some changes to my workstation, my office, the way I interact with patients. I might ask for the patients to be brought to me more frequently rather than go into the rooms. Those kinds of things I just, I think would have been more specific. I think that would have been more helpful to other people as well.
Sylvia: So, towards the end, when you really were experiencing more significant vision loss, did you ask for those kinds of accommodations? And did you ever get any training while you were still working, such as in orientation and mobility or with assistive technology or anything?
Pat: No, Sylvia, nothing. I didn't do any of those things. I was still in denial and just no, I can manage, I can pass, you know, I can pass as a sighted person and that's the way I want it right now. So I did that right up to, I essentially, I left my job rather than look for accommodations. I was at retirement age because it was possible to retire. I had that option. Had I been younger, you know, even ten years younger, I would have been forced either to go on disability or to really just kind of come to grips with things in a much more significant way. The cane training and the mobility training that I've done have all been since I retired at sixty-four. And even, you know, what I did. I mean, in a hospital, I was working with physios and OTs. So, the OTs in particular, you know, a couple were my good friends, were very helpful and sort of in an informal way were talking to me about scanning while staying close to the walls rather than trying to walk down the middle of the hallways, which were quite wide. So, I couldn't see both sides of them eventually. So, that's what I would do. So, I did get some informal advice from occupational therapists that I worked with. Keep close to the edge. Stop if anybody's coming. Let them pass first. Don't try and sort of jiggle your way around them. Let other people pass first. Scan constantly. Scanning is the other thing.
Sylvia: So I have to tell you, Pat, that everything you told me, this is very typical. I mean, I was the same way and I mean, I was much younger when I experienced enough vision loss that I had to ask for accommodations and learn skills. But that is very typical of what I find, you know, as a as a vision rehab therapist myself is and having worked with many, many clients over the years, is that people develop their own adaptations, just like you're talking about. Those are the kinds of things that I think we naturally figure out in some ways, too. And when we can have other people around us to tell us those things, too. That's great, but many people start adapting, probably even without realizing it. You were really starting to do some of those things before you even realized it.
Pat: Yes. One of the things that a friend told me was that in the last several years is that I was not looking at people as much as I used to. So, again, that's another thing now that I try and be very careful of, like in a grocery store in the line. I can see a face, so I try and make sure to say “Thank you.” and “Have a good day.” But looking at the person and not the ground, because the ground is where the dangers are generally.
Sylvia: That’s so true! So great, yeah.
Pat: Keeping an eye on the ground is important. But, you know, engaging with people and really looking at them as you talking with them is also important. But it's an effort.
Sylvia: And even when you can't see them anymore, it's still important. So, my next question is and I realized that you didn't have “blindness skills,” but what do you believe are the skills that really helped you continue to work and what gave you that ability to continue to work?
Pat: Well, I mean, my motivation to be employed, I was an older parent, so I had a child I was supporting. So, there was, you know, no way I was going to not work. So, the idea of not working never entered my head. So, it was how am I going to figure this out? I have to make a living. I want to work and I have a child to support. And so those were the sort of I would say, the major, major motivations. What help me, I guess, would be my partner and my music. I'm very involved in music. So that kind of kept me going. And the church and a church community, those would be the things that kept me going. So those were my supports, some personal support networks of some kind. You know, connecting with the blind, visually impaired community has again been something very recent that connecting through the daring sisters was kind of an important step for me. So though I'm not connected in Canada, I'm more connected with the group in the States, so but that's been an important group for me, too. Making sure that you are surrounded by people who are willing to kind of go on that journey with you and accommodate with you, because it's not just us, it's the people we work with or the people that care about us who are also impacted.
Sylvia: That's so true, Pat. So true. Now, so attitude and that support system. That's great. That's excellent.
Pat: Yeah, definitely. And having something that's keeping you going personally. You know, what is it for you that sort of keeping you motivated to stay in the game, to stay working? Do you need the money? Have you got people who are counting on you? What is it this, you know, do you really enjoy your work? Is there a way of adapting your work? Can you become a different kind of social could I become a different kind of social worker? If I think now, I could have. There are other things I could have done in employment wise. I could have gone into private practice and I could have worked, you know, and gone into private practice specializing in disability or vision loss. But I didn't do those things. Had I had I been younger, maybe I would have had to face up a little more quickly and maybe I would have done that. Maybe I would have sort of moved my world into a field that was more accessible for me.
Sylvia: That's great. So what, I guess finally, what advice would you give someone and I think you've said some really brilliant things, Pat. Really brilliant things. And I appreciate the authenticity, too. But my final thing is my question would be, is what advice would you give someone who, like you, later in their life or later in their career I should say not really later in life, later in your career, experiences significant vision loss that impacts their work. What are some piece of advice you would get?
Pat: Let me say, take a deep breath and kind of try to look at the situations square on as much as you can. It's not easy. And it often comes in bits and pieces, but try to be open to what is happening. Understand it. Seek out the resources that you feel at your stage in the journey that you can accept and live with. But try and be aware of what the journey might look like and where you were on in that sort of on that continuum. If you're at the beginning of the journey and you still have reasonable vision, don't sort of push it aside, try and keep in your awareness that this is a really is a, you know, a life altering change and or understanding and that don't give up, you know, just don't give up. Life doesn't end. Life doesn't end with this. It feels like it at certain points, but it really doesn't. And really seek out a community. Seek out people that are willing to support you. If you're in a sort of a relationship where the person is just sort of discounting what you're saying or is not going to be helpful, then think about what that means in your life. And try and educate people. People just don't get it often and they really just don't get it. Especially if they've they see walking around without a cane and crashing into things. But people need more information than we imagine to begin to understand what you're experiencing, and even then, it's often hard for people to really get it. So, let them know. Let people know what you're doing.
Sylvia: Yeah. That's so true. So, explain things to people the best you can and understand that it is very difficult for people. And I would also just add is that seek out training, orientation and mobility. Learn assistive technology. All of those things can make life so much easier. It's much easier.
Pat: Yeah. And I have done that. I have spoken with the tech specialist for the CNI, Canadian National Institute for the Blind. So then that person was extremely helpful, though. There are there are things out there, you just have got to find them and be persistent. Go at your own pace, but don't let don't be dragged down by your own pace either.
Sylvia: That's wonderful. Pat, thank you so much for taking your time out to share about your experiences. And I always love speaking to my fellow social workers. So, thank you so much.
Pat: It’s my great pleasure. Thank you for asking me.
Episode 7: Using Adaptability to Succeed as a Spanish Translator (Lucy)
On this episode, we are joined by our host, Sylvia Stinson-Perez, and today's guest, Lucy. Lucy shares about how she used her knowledge of speaking a second language and turning it into her career.
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Transcript:
Introduction: Thank you for joining us on Employment Insights with the NRTC. On this episode, we are joined by our host Sylvia Stinson-Perez and today's guest, Lucy. Lucy shares about her employment journey of using her knowledge of speaking a second language and turning it into a career. Continue listening for more.
Sylvia: Welcome back to another episode of NRTC Employment Insights. We are thrilled today to have Lucy joining us. Thank you so much for being with us today, Lucy. I'm super excited.
Lucy: I'm very excited also. Thank you so much for this opportunity, Sylvia.
Sylvia: Oh, you're welcome. So, Lucy, we'll jump into our questions. Tell us a little bit about your vision impairment.
Lucy: I have congenital cataracts and glaucoma. I was born in Honduras where the access to proper medical treatment isn't as readily available as it is here. So at the age of seven, I came to the US and went through a couple of different surgeries here. And I eventually lost the little site that I had by age 15 because of retinal detachment. So I would have cornea transplants. And then after a while, my corneas would get cloudy again, and I would lose the little bit of sight that I might have gained with a previous surgery. And then eventually, I just lost all of it, but.
Sylvia: Okay. Yeah. That's a challenge. Wow.
Lucy: It is.
Sylvia: And Lucy, so tell us about your work history and your career journey, which I think is fascinating.
Lucy: Thank you. I appreciate that.
Sylvia: Because you took a skill-- what I love is that you took a skill that you had and turned it into a job.
Lucy: I did. I am a fluent Spanish speaker. I went to the University of South Florida in Tampa to get a bachelor's in languages. So Spanish was the main focus, of course, and I took all kinds of different courses in Latin American history and studies and literature, learned everything that I could about my own culture, and started working for LanguageLine Solutions shortly after I graduated with my bachelor's from there. And I worked for a LanguageLine for about five years. And subsequently, I began working for another company that's based out of Portland, Oregon. It's Certified Languages International, and I'm still working with them. Also, I've done some work for the Florida School for the Deaf and Blind in St. Augustine, Florida over the past couple of years as an interpreter for the students there with Spanish-speaking parents who may need an interpreter for an individual educational plan. So that's been a wonderful opportunity to be able to work with them. And recently, I have been working in Daytona, Florida at the residential rehabilitation center for the blind with Spanish speaking clients, interpreting for them through all of their classes while they've been in training. So in a nutshell, that's been my experience.
Sylvia: Yeah, I think it's really cool that you took a skill that you had, speaking Spanish, and turned that into a career. And clearly, to be an interpreter, it takes more than just the ability to speak two languages. What other skills do you think have been really important in developing this as a career?
Lucy: Well, a really good understanding of the target language that you're working with and of the culture is really important. For the companies that I have worked for, I have mostly been doing work in the medical field from home over the phone. So I needed to have a proper understanding of medical terminology, of course, but also, all the nuances that go along with the things that are being said by the Spanish-speaking patient and how to interpret that into English and have that information be transmitted in a way that renders the interpretation.
Sylvia: So really good communication skills. And it sounds like to me a constant learning because you're having to learn new things all the time. And if you're introduced to a new culture, I'm guessing you're going to have to go and get some information, right, and learn about that culture?
Lucy: That is correct. Yes, absolutely.
Sylvia: Yeah. So communications and constantly learning. That's super interesting. So, Lucy, you have been able to work remotely throughout your career to some extent but also to work in person. And you were even working remotely prior to COVID and the pandemic. So what are the challenges and the benefits of both working remotely and working in person?
Lucy: The benefits of working at an on-site location, you can network with other people, you can have more in-person-- get to know the coworkers that you're working with. And some of the challenges with working remotely are that you spend more time indoors and the transportation is also a challenge when trying to work somewhere on site. Sometimes it's difficult to get a ride to where you need to go, especially if it's different locations.
Sylvia: And I guess if you're working on a long-term project, would building rapport with the people be slightly more challenging working remotely? Or what do you think about that? I think that's a big concern that all of us have who work remotely now.
Lucy: It is. I feel like it is a big concern. It's not as easy to build rapport with your coworkers and other people in the company that you're working for when you're working remotely because they don't see you. You may talk to them every now and then, and you're pretty much just a voice on the line. And if you do video, of course, that helps quite a bit, but it's still not the same as being in person.
Sylvia: And another thing that occurs to me with working remotely but I think has been a little bit of a surprise to a lot of people is the technology learning curve. You have to have much greater skills, I think, for technology when you work remotely because you can't just yell across the hall to your neighbor and say, "Hey, I'm having problems with this," or to your IT person who could come in remotely to your computer, but it's much more challenging when you're not in the office, I think. And that's something I don't think a lot of people realize until they have that experience.
Lucy: That's true. Yes, technology is definitely a big part of being able to work independently and remotely. I've had to learn how to set up my own spreadsheets to have the calculations for everything that I earn. Since I work as an independent contractor, I keep track of all of that. So I log all of my calls, the number of minutes the call lasted. All that information is on a spreadsheet, and I had to learn on my own how to make that work for me. So that's just a small example of the things that I've needed to learn with regard to technology to be able to adapt.
Sylvia: That's a great example. Great example. So, Lucy, what would you say are the key skills that have led to your success?
Lucy: The key skills that have led to my success have been-- one of them I would say is adaptability because whether I'm working from home remotely or on site, I'm having to work with different people, either over the phone or in different clients. In the workplace, I have different coworkers. And also, situations that might come up that you might need to figure out how to solve, you have to be able to have that ability to work independently and figure out what you need to do to get the job done.
Sylvia: Anything else? That's a really important one.
Lucy: As we mentioned, technology is a very important one. With regard to skills for people who are blind or visually impaired, I would say Braille is definitely a big part of what has helped me to be successful. I learned Braille from very early on even though I had a little bit of sight. And I am very grateful to have been able to do that and develop my Braille skills throughout the time that I was in school because now I use a Braille display to do all of my interpreting. And so I have to type fast, and Braille all of my information. I have a bit of a shorthand, if you could say that, with how I type my information and relay it back in Spanish or in English. And so that's a very necessary skill. Orientation and mobility skills, definitely working on site is a very important one for you to be able to navigate different areas where you might be working. That was definitely something I exercised a couple of months ago when I started working at the rehabilitation center here for the blind.
Sylvia: It's interesting to me, Lucy, that when I ask that question about blindness skills, pretty much everybody says the same thing. And I'm so glad because those skills are so important. And I think sometimes the skills part gets underestimated. And especially for people who are newer to vision loss, and they're trying to get a job, and they don't have the skills, and it really does interfere with their ability to get a job but mostly to retain that job. So what would you say to VR, vocational rehabilitation, counselors who might listen to this and who are working with people who are blind or low vision and trying to work with them on placement and getting them ready for employment? What would you say are some key things that are really important for them to know?
Lucy: One of the things that I noticed working at the rehabilitation center is the importance of working with a diverse population of people. Vocational rehabilitation counselors, it would be really important for them to have a good handle on the culture of the clients that they might be working with and different needs that they might have depending on their background, and that's something that I've noticed. And also, having adequate evaluations to determine what type of technology might be needed.
Sylvia: Yeah. I think the training piece is so important. Understanding what a person is going to need technology-wise, training-wise, accommodations-wise, equipment-wise. All of those are important to be successful.
Lucy: Also, having the proper equipment. So that's part of the assessment for the client to have the proper equipment that they're going to need to be able to do well at their job.
Sylvia: Yeah. It's really important. And so finally, Lucy, what advice would you give someone maybe who's young or who is new to vision loss or whatever, and they're looking for a job? What kind of advice would you give people who are visually impaired and looking for work?
Lucy: I would say find out what your passion is, what you really like to do. And learn everything that you can about it, research it, find other people that may have that same interest. And also, networking is really important and gaining the skills necessary for the career that you would like to go into whether it be through training or through university schooling. And also, to advocate for yourself. Unfortunately, as blind people in a sighted world, we have to do certain things to prove that we can do the things we can do. And so we have to be able to speak up for ourselves and have what we want.
Sylvia: And need.
Lucy: And need. Correct.
Sylvia: Yeah. Those are some great pieces of advice, Lucy. All of those are just fantastic.
Lucy: Thank you.
Sylvia: Well, it has been so wonderful talking to you, Lucy. And again, I think it's just fantastic, even magical, that you took a skill and turned it into a career. And I guess I would just encourage more people to kind of figure out. Like you said, find something you're passionate about and that you're good at, and see if you can turn that into work.
Lucy: That's right. As a child, I would interpret for my family. And I realized how much I enjoyed being able to do that. And once I graduated from high school, that was definitely something that I felt passionate about and wanted to be able to do. So I'm living my dream.
Sylvia: Awesome. Thank you so much, Lucy.
Lucy: Thank you!
Episode 8: Navigating Massage Therapy Work with Blindness (Jinnerfer)
We are excited to bring you another episode where we sit down with an individual that is blind or has low vision and talk about their employment journey. In this episode, we are joined by host Sylvia Stinson-Perez and our guest, Jinnerfer. Join us to listen to more about Jinnerfer's career that led her to become a massage therapist.
Listen on Spotify Download Episode 8 Transcript
Transcript:
Introduction: Welcome back to another episode of Employment Insights with the NRTC. We are excited to bring you another episode where we sit down with an individual that is blind or has low vision and talk about their employment journey. In this episode, we are joined by host Sylvia Stinson-Perez and our guest, Jennifer. Continue listening to more about Jinnerfer’s career that led her to become a massage therapist.
Sylvia: Welcome to NRTC Employment Insights, and this time we have Jennifer, who is a massage therapist. I'm super excited, Jennifer, about this conversation. Welcome.
Jinnerfer: Thank you.
Sylvia: Jennifer, share with us just a little bit about your vision loss. Um, what can you see? How long have you been visually impaired and the stuff like that?
Jinnerfer: OK, so I was born visually impaired. I was born with a rare form of retinitis pigmentosa. I do not remember the name of it. I have had so many different diagnoses. But I do know that it's rare enough for them to have taken pictures to put in a text book when I was 16 years old. I have never been able to see well, I used to be able to see lights and shadows, colors. I used to be able to read large print and I could do that comfortably until probably about the sixth or seventh grade, I had to start using a cane when I was 10, and I had to start learning Braille when I was eight years old. And by the time I was probably about 17 or 18, I only had light perception. I couldn't distinguish like any shadows or forms or anything else it was just I tell the difference between night and day and whether a light is on or not. Now, at the age of forty-three, I can see light sometimes and sometimes I wonder, actually I can see light. I was going to say sometimes I wonder if I could actually see the lights of my brain registering that there should be light on. And I think that happens sometimes. But it's kind of a in and out with a light perception. Oh, and also have keratoconus
Sylvia: You remember. And I can relate to that light perception thing. So tell us about your kind of work journey. What kind of training have you had? What kind of work have you done, volunteering, etcetera
Jinnerfer: So, I don't have a lot of working experience, but I have been volunteering since I was a child. It started off in high school. The class was doing a report on Helen Keller, and instead of me writing a report, I did a presentation. And from there from that English class. I got pushed to another English class that was doing Helen Keller. And I ended up doing it every year for three years while I was in high school. And then I volunteered to go to my sister's school when she got to high school. She's four years behind me and I was her extra credit and that branched off to me volunteering to go to different schools in the district. I lived in Cleveland, Ohio at the time. And I went to different schools and talked to different kids and preschools. And none of these this these were not classes for the visually impaired. It was actually just talking to people who could see so that they can to educate them more. I worked for Marriott for five years in their reservations. I was a fun buncher for probably about six weeks, maybe two months at Six Flags. But we found out that we spent more money than we made. So that didn’t last that long and I have volunteered, actually, I still do volunteer for the National Federation of the Blind. I'm very active. I'm currently the president of my chapter, that is ending the next month. But I will continue to volunteer for the federation, as well as I’m on our state affiliate board. And now I am a massage therapist and that is a whole nother story. But I am a massage therapist now. I went to school for massage therapy twice. The first time was in Ohio, probably about 14 years ago, and I went through an 18-month program and did not pass my state board exam. So, there was a lot of moving around. I moved to St. Louis and didn't work for a while, and then I moved to Las Vegas and I was here for about two or three years, I want to say about two years. And I have a daughter now and she's getting big and she wants stuff. And I was like, I have to do something. And I really had a passion for massage therapy the first time I went to school for massage therapy. And I'm like, what can I do that does not require me to go to school for eight years because I wanted to go into psychology, but that's a lot of education. And I just couldn't see me working, going to school, and being a mother at the same time. And I was like, oh, you know what, I think I'll get back to massage therapy because I absolutely loved it before. So, I went to school in Las Vegas for ten months. And to show you I always say things happen for a reason. So, in those ten months I learned that I learned nothing in those 18 months that I went to massage therapy school in Ohio. I learned so much at this school and I took my MBLEx exam, which is our state board exam, and passed it the first time. And now I'm a massage therapist.
Sylvia: That's awesome. And you know what? You probably have people talking to you all day while you're doing massage. So, you get to use a little bit psychology anyway.
Jinnerfer: So, I do sometimes. People don’t just um, every once in a while, I'll get a talker. But for the most part, people just come in and are like, I'm stressed, I'm hurting, and they lay down on the table and they’re asleep in five minutes.
Sylvia: And that's awesome. I mean, you're doing a good job. So, before we talk more about the massage therapy, how have you handled disclosure of your, of your blindness to people, to your employers?
Jinnerfer: I am very open. I have no problem with talking to people about my blindness. I tell them what I can do. I don't allow them to tell me what I can't do. Now, I did have an issue there. Of course, they're not going to come out and tell you that they're not hiring you because you're blind. But I have. I had an issue with a spa that I was interviewing for, and before I interviewed, I toured the spa. Now, this spa is massive and it's inside a massive hotel and I was intimidated. I was a little intimidated. However, I don't let people know that I'm intimidated because they'll take that and run with it. And the young lady who was giving me the tour, she was very discouraging. And she was like, I got lost here in the first month. And I told her I explained to her that I have a mobility instructor and I just need to know where I need to be. I don't have to walk around this entire spa all the time. That's where I've been in larger places and I won't have a problem. And she kind of kept at it. And I went through the entire interview process. This place’s interview, someone said it's like NASA because you have to go through a phone interview, an interview with human resources, an interview with two lead massage therapists. And I actually did two hands on interviews. I've heard other people have only done one hands on interview. So, I went through the entire interview process and to get to the first interview process at this place, because it's pretty exclusive, is very difficult. So, going through the entire interview process, I was like, yes, I have the job. I never heard back from this place. And one of the people interviewed me was the young lady who was very discouraging about me getting around the place. So, I kind of want to say she had something to do with that. But I don't know, I, I let them know it's difficult for me not to let people know that I'm blind. I'm walking in with a cane. I can't see. So, it's not an option for them not to understand that I’m blind
Sylvia: Do you tell people before you come in or do you wait until you arrive and it's obvious?
Jinnerfer: No, no I don't think that it's necessary for me to tell them when I come in. That's not necessary. However, if they look at my resume, all of my volunteering is with the National Federation of the Blind. So, they pretty much know it when I come in anyway.
Sylvia: They didn’t read through the lines well.
Jinnerfer: Yeah, it's not necessary to let them know that you're blind before you come in. That's not part of your resume. It's not, it has nothing to do with you actually doing your job. But they're going to see you and you have to go in. I will say this, if when you do apply for jobs and when you go in for interviews, you have to go in with confidence.
Sylvia: Yeah, so what would you say are the, you know, three maybe major skills that have really helped you be successful?
Jinnerfer: Like faking it to you make it. Like I said, confidence.
Sylvia: [laughs] confidence
Jinnerfer: I can fake confidence like you wouldn't believe. I'm always myself. I think that I have a great personality and I've been told that I have a great personality. I've always been myself when I go into an interview. I don't treat interviews like they're interviews. I'm going in here to talk to a person. They have questions. I have answers. And knowing what I'm talking about before I go in there, like, absolutely knowing my job, knowing what position I'm going in to apply for, which feeds into the whole confidence.
Sylvia: Being prepared
Together: Being prepared.
Sylvia: Yes, that's what that's. Yeah. So, are there specific blindness skills, you think, have really made a significant difference? And you talked about getting around this huge hotel, so mobility skills have to be really critical. So, what are some of those blindness skills that you've had to use?
Jinnerfer: With massage therapy, the one great thing about massage therapy is all you need is a table and some oil to perform your job. So, I haven't, the only skill that I would say that I have really had to use is my mobility. You do need a good sense of touch. And some people think that because you're blind, you have like the best sense of touch. There are some people who do not for medical reasons or whatever reason that is. But I don't like, mostly mobility, but just me personally, I have a great sense of discernment so I can tell when someone's not feeling well. I can go to the place on their bodies that um, that I'm pretty sure is causing them pain. I can find, not that maybe someone else couldn't find. So definitely have patience.
Jinnerfer: Have patience. But I don't on my job I don't need Braille. We don't, they use a computer. But OK, so here's, I'm sorry I had to think about it. So, our software, a lot of the software for the booking and everything is not very accessible. It's not good at all. And it's hard for people who can see to operate these systems a lot of times. And so, they can look, the other therapists can look on the computer and see if their guest has checked in, if their schedule has been changed. It doesn't work for me. It's not accessible, not even with the access we have. I have glasses that can read the screen and everything. And so, we've worked it out with the front desk and they text me when my client comes in. So my, I-
Sylvia: So, you found an accommodation.
Jinnerfer: Yes. Yes. So, my iPhone works, it accommodates me so I use my phone, I keep my phone on me. My watch. I use my watch for a timer. So, those are things that I use.
Sylvia: Great. So, what challenges have you faced and how have you overcome those as a massage therapist?
Jinnerfer: I think my biggest challenge was what I was just saying about the scheduling and everything, and we worked that out. That was the biggest challenge. Getting hired was sort of a challenge, and it had nothing to do with me being blind and everything with my standards for the spa that I want to work in. I went through a lot of interviewing and it was you know, I did well on my interviews. I actually got a few job offers, but I didn't like the places that were offering me the job. Their standards for cleanliness was not what I preferred. There was just that one place that I had an issue with. Like I said, I was intimidated. I'm actually kind of glad I didn't get hired at that spa because it was really it was crazy. It was really crazy having to get to the spa and going through the spa. It's not that I couldn't do it, but it was if you could see this place, it was unnerving. But the place that I work in now is great. It's in a hotel and it's there's no casino. It's a family hotel. It's a timeshare. So, it's so easy to just walk in, walk down the steps, make a right. And I'm at the spa and it's a small spa. So, yeah, there's not very many challenges in massage therapy, which is why I think a lot of blind people choose it because it's, it's like the perfect job where you can make a lot of, a lot of money or a nice amount of money and it doesn't require a lot. It's taxing on your body because you're doing a lot of pushing and pulling. You have to stand up all day, but you don't have to be able to see to do it, and you can live off of that money comfortably.
Sylvia: Great. I'm glad you found this and that you came back to work even after having maybe what some people would consider a really negative experience. You circle back and when you were ready, you came back to it. So that leads me to my next question. I think that's a really important question. A lot of VR counselors listen to this podcast as well as people who are blind. What do you wish that all VR counselors knew working with people who are blind?
Jinnerfer: I wish they all knew that we know what we want. What we want to do. And those of us who don't know we want to do, we need for the counselors to be counselors and help us find directions, because I think that's what the counselors are supposed to do. Some of us who are just coming out of high school, we don't know exactly what we want to do. We don't know what we can prepare for. And we need direction. And I know that they have some tests that we can take that point in the direction. I actually test that really high in the clerical department. I'm great at computers and everything, but it wasn't what I wanted to do. It's not so much what they should know, but I've had, my experience throughout the years with counselors is them being very discouraging when I tell them what I want to do and when I was younger, I was easily led away from where my passion was. And I can see that with someone who is nearly blind. They want to do this, but their counselors say “Oh, no, you should do that.” And I've had that happen. I've been in three different states and I've had that happen in every state. And, you know, and it made me wonder, are they teaching these counselors to do this because it's the same experience in each state? And finally, once I got older and again got confident, I go. I went into the office and I said, “Hey, this is what I'm going to do. Are you going to help me or do I need to speak to a supervisor?”
Sylvia: OK, so listening to your client and helping them discover their passions, their skills.
Jinnerfer: And not what you think they should do.
Sylvia: OK, so my final question, Jennifer, is what's one piece of advice that you would give any person in your shoes, who's maybe one of those people who've grown up visually impaired or someone who as an adult all of a sudden had vision loss and wants to continue working?
Jinnerfer: I would say go for it. Do your research. Don't think about what you can't do, because the only thing that you can't do is see. Do your research. Find a way to do what you want to do. We have access to all kinds of technology. Google knows everything. So, find your passion. Find out what you want to do. Find a way to do it. Once you figure that out, you can go in with confidence. I keep on stressing this word, confidence, because you have to have that. It's and if you don't have it, do like I do and sometimes you got to fake it. You got to go in there like, yes, this is what I'm going to do and it's going to happen and it'll happen for you.
Sylvia: So, I like what you said too earlier, Jennifer, in other words, you said, be prepared. And when you're prepared with the knowledge, with the skills, with the information, that can give you that confidence, that self-assurance.
Jinnerfer: Yes. Yes.
Sylvia: Awesome. Thank you so much. This has been fantastic.
Jinnerfer: I've enjoyed talking to you.
